Sharing Expenses - 46 CFR 175.400

Sea Draggin · 10-20-2009, 04:17 PM

The question comes up several times a year regarding the sharing of expenses for trips. It is OK to in accordance with 46 CFR 175.400, with profit being the key word in the regulation.

If you are a boat owner, a copy of this (or the actual regulations) would be good to have. You never know when you will run across an overachiever looking to move up the ranks. Although its address specifically to Hampton Roads, the federal laws apply everywhere.

------------------------------------------

Legal Operation of Charter Boats-Guidance for Masters

This message is intended to provide clarification to recreational boaters seeking people to share expenses in the Hampton Roads area.
It is illegal for an uninspected vessel engaged in passenger for hire operations to be operated by an individual who is not licensed by the U.S. Coast Guard. Specifically, each uninspected passenger vessel of less than 100 gross tons as defined by 46 CFR 24.10-1 that carries six passengers or less, including one or more passengers for hire, must be under the direction and control of an individual licensed by the U.S. Coast Guard. The license must be kept in the operator’s possession (46 CFR 26.20-1). In addition to needing a licensed operator, each uninspected passenger vessel must meet all safety requirements outlined in 46 CFR 25.

Additionally, in accordance with 46 CFR 175.110, if a vessel carries more than six passengers, including at least one for hire, it must meet all Coast Guard safety requirements for an inspected passenger vessel.
The question of at what point an individual becomes a “passenger for hire” has caused confusion but is very straightforward. “Passenger for hire” means a passenger for whom consideration is contributed as a condition of carriage, whether directly or indirectly flowing to the owner, charterer, operator, agent, or any other person having interest in the vessel (46 CFR 24.10-1). Therefore, requiring strangers to share expenses constitutes a passenger for hire operation.

“Consideration” means an economic benefit or profit including payment of money or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or supplies. It does not include a voluntary sharing of the actual expense of the voyage (46 CFR 175.400).

If a vessel carries just one individual passenger, or “hop on,” who provides anything more than a voluntary sharing of the actual cost of the trip, the vessel is operating as a passenger vessel and requires a Coast Guard licensed operator. If more than six passengers are involved, the vessel will require certification as a Coast Guard inspected vessel, as well as a licensed operator. In other words, if the owner, charterer, operator, agent or anyone else who has an interest in the vessel receives any money, fuel, or supplies that the passenger did not freely choose to share as part of the actual cost of the trip, the vessel is carrying a passenger for hire and must meet the following requirements:
(1) The master in command of a passenger for hire vessel must be an individual licensed by the U.S. Coast Guard.
(2) Vessels carrying more than six passengers, in which at least one is for hire, must be inspected and certified by the U.S. Coast Guard.
(3) This inspection includes but is not limited to certificates and documents, navigation safety, structural integrity, general health and safety, ground tackle, lifesaving equipment, fire protection, machinery/electrical equipment,
pollution prevention, and completion of emergency drills. Different regulations apply depending on service and route.

It is important to consider potential liability for violating these rules. If a passenger receives an injury as minor as a fishhook in their finger, the owner may face insurance liability. In addition, many boat loans have conditions in their terms that the vessel may not be used for commercial purposes. If an operator takes a paying passenger onboard without meeting the requirements for an inspected vessel and the passenger is injured or drowns, the vessel may be held to the inspected passenger vessel standard for purposes of criminal liability. If the operator does not have a license and was operating the vessel as an inspected passenger vessel, their insurance company may deny a claim. Compared to this legal and financial distress, acquiring a Coast Guard license and passing a Coast Guard passenger vessel inspection are much less burdensome tasks.
It is the owner’s responsibility to determine the legal requirements applicable to the type of operation in which the vessel is to be employed and to ensure every requirement is fully complied with before operations begin.

The Coast Guard is committed to the enforcement of all applicable federal regulations for passenger vessels. In accordance with Coast Guard Notice of Violation policies, maximum civil penalties up to $1,100 for failure to have a valid Coast Guard license in possession and available when vessel is carrying passenger(s) for hire will be sought in cases involving unlicensed operators in accordance with 46 CFR 26.20-1, and licensed operators found to be operating in violation of applicable regulations will face suspension and/or revocation of their merchant mariner credentials. The Coast Guard may notify operators’ banks and insurance companies which may change rates and coverage. In addition, the Cost Guard will submit leads to the IRS for unreported income that could result in civil fines and criminal prosecution by the IRS.

Further, we will take steps to educate the public in the area about federal requirements for passenger vessels. It is our goal that an educated consumer will seek out only properly licensed operators for their business to ensure their safety.

If you have any additional questions, please do not hesitate to contact my staff at the following address and telephone number:
Sector Hampton Roads
Inspections Division
200 Granby St. Suite 700
Norfolk, VA 23510
(757) 668-5511

frankypettolina · 10-20-2009, 09:18 PM

what about the part that says

"requiring strangers to share expenses constitutes a passenger for hire operation"

and benefit and profit may not mean the same thing.

I should probably keep my mouth shut, but again, here we go

a group of buddies going on a trip and splitting costs = NOT a charter

openly posting on an internet forum with a dollar amount= CHARTER.

Questsportfishing · 10-21-2009, 08:00 AM

saying ass, gas or grass ... nobody rides for free????

Patudo · 10-21-2009, 10:02 AM

Another point that came up on reading the regulations:

“Passenger for hire” means a passenger for whom consideration is contributed as a condition of carriage, whether directly or indirectly flowing to the owner, charterer, operator, agent, or any other person having interest in the vessel (46 CFR 24.10-1). Therefore, requiring strangers to share expenses constitutes a passenger for hire operation.

“Consideration” means an economic benefit or profit including payment of money or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or supplies. It does not include a voluntary sharing of the actual expense of the voyage (46 CFR 175.400).

In other words, if the owner, charterer, operator, agent or anyone else who has an interest in the vessel receives any money, fuel, or supplies that the passenger did not freely choose to share as part of the actual cost of the trip, the vessel is carrying a passenger for hire and must meet the following requirements:

I read this to mean that if you demand that your guests must pay expenses: that they go fishing with you on condition that they pay expenses - you are carrying passengers for hire within the meaning of the regulations. The vessel and operator then need to fulfil the Coast Guard requirements. If on the other hand your guests of their own free will decide to foot the expenses then they do not count as "passengers for hire".

However, (I realize this is controversial) I think that so long as vessel and operator satisfy Coast Guard requirements for carrying passengers for hire, whatever they may be: then every owner should have the right to decide how much charter fee his vessel will sail for.

frankypettolina · 10-21-2009, 11:00 AM

We can play with the wording all day long.

I think talented lawyers could probably make an incredible trial costing all of the parties involved to go half broke.

The USCG should take this further and make it CLEAR CUT what is a charter and what is not.

Just like they should show up at the marinas on a daily basis and hold a cup for the crew members to piss in- then there would be true drug testing.

It looks like the USCG is finally tightening up on license renewals, but I still think they need to tighten up on the licensing process to begin with- classes that teach the test and have civilians proctoring the test are a crock- make people study and take the test at a USCG testing facility.

TomL · 10-21-2009, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankypettolina

openly posting on an internet forum with a dollar amount= CHARTER.

who did that?

frankypettolina · 10-21-2009, 02:01 PM

TomL- that is taken from the debate that has gone on for the past 2 years- there used to be a lot of postings that said something like...

"Me and Billy Boy are taking our Canyon Whupper out to the hambone on Saturday to ass rape the tunas- we need 3 more guys at 100 dollars a head- pm me for more details"

Now i ask you- charter or private?

sportfishingusa · 10-21-2009, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankypettolina

TomL- that is taken from the debate that has gone on for the past 2 years- there used to be a lot of postings that said something like...

"Me and Billy Boy are taking our Canyon Whupper out to the hambone on Saturday to ass rape the tunas- we need 3 more guys at 100 dollars a head- pm me for more details"

Now i ask you- charter or private?

Thats why my friends and myself included always put all expenses on one bill and worry about it at the end.. everything gets kept in a folder and all reciepts come out and added and divided..

frankypettolina · 10-21-2009, 02:27 PM

Vinnie- another keyword you used-me and my FRIENDS.

I have never had a problem with a true expense sharing trip.

This went on allthe time in the pre internet days- hell it went on for ever- one guy has a boat and his drinking buddies meet him on saturday and pony up for gas and bait. Its a great thing.

I think when it started going awry was when the internet forums got big.

I am not so much bitching about this from a charter boat captains point of view, but trying to make people aware when they are doing something illegal. It is no different than when I survey a "charter boat" and find nothing but Type II PFD's on the boat- I make them aware that they are breaking the law (and believe me i see stuff like this all the time)

Agitated88 · 10-21-2009, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankypettolina

TomL- that is taken from the debate that has gone on for the past 2 years-
"Me and Billy Boy are taking our Canyon Whupper out to the hambone on Saturday to ass rape the tunas- we need 3 more guys at 100 dollars a head- pm me for more details"

I'm not going to add any sustenance to this thread...but I gotta say thanks for the laugh Franky...that’s some funny chit right there!!!

10-20-2009, 04:17 PM	#1
Sea Draggin www.easterntackle.com Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: High Point, NC Posts: 5,638 Credits: 9,473.9 Best Catch: The next bite on a jig.	Sharing Expenses - 46 CFR 175.400 The question comes up several times a year regarding the sharing of expenses for trips. It is OK to in accordance with 46 CFR 175.400, with profit being the key word in the regulation. If you are a boat owner, a copy of this (or the actual regulations) would be good to have. You never know when you will run across an overachiever looking to move up the ranks. Although its address specifically to Hampton Roads, the federal laws apply everywhere. ------------------------------------------ Legal Operation of Charter Boats-Guidance for Masters This message is intended to provide clarification to recreational boaters seeking people to share expenses in the Hampton Roads area. It is illegal for an uninspected vessel engaged in passenger for hire operations to be operated by an individual who is not licensed by the U.S. Coast Guard. Specifically, each uninspected passenger vessel of less than 100 gross tons as defined by 46 CFR 24.10-1 that carries six passengers or less, including one or more passengers for hire, must be under the direction and control of an individual licensed by the U.S. Coast Guard. The license must be kept in the operator’s possession (46 CFR 26.20-1). In addition to needing a licensed operator, each uninspected passenger vessel must meet all safety requirements outlined in 46 CFR 25. Additionally, in accordance with 46 CFR 175.110, if a vessel carries more than six passengers, including at least one for hire, it must meet all Coast Guard safety requirements for an inspected passenger vessel. The question of at what point an individual becomes a “passenger for hire” has caused confusion but is very straightforward. “Passenger for hire” means a passenger for whom consideration is contributed as a condition of carriage, whether directly or indirectly flowing to the owner, charterer, operator, agent, or any other person having interest in the vessel (46 CFR 24.10-1). Therefore, requiring strangers to share expenses constitutes a passenger for hire operation. “Consideration” means an economic benefit or profit including payment of money or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or supplies. It does not include a voluntary sharing of the actual expense of the voyage (46 CFR 175.400). If a vessel carries just one individual passenger, or “hop on,” who provides anything more than a voluntary sharing of the actual cost of the trip, the vessel is operating as a passenger vessel and requires a Coast Guard licensed operator. If more than six passengers are involved, the vessel will require certification as a Coast Guard inspected vessel, as well as a licensed operator. In other words, if the owner, charterer, operator, agent or anyone else who has an interest in the vessel receives any money, fuel, or supplies that the passenger did not freely choose to share as part of the actual cost of the trip, the vessel is carrying a passenger for hire and must meet the following requirements: (1) The master in command of a passenger for hire vessel must be an individual licensed by the U.S. Coast Guard. (2) Vessels carrying more than six passengers, in which at least one is for hire, must be inspected and certified by the U.S. Coast Guard. (3) This inspection includes but is not limited to certificates and documents, navigation safety, structural integrity, general health and safety, ground tackle, lifesaving equipment, fire protection, machinery/electrical equipment, pollution prevention, and completion of emergency drills. Different regulations apply depending on service and route. It is important to consider potential liability for violating these rules. If a passenger receives an injury as minor as a fishhook in their finger, the owner may face insurance liability. In addition, many boat loans have conditions in their terms that the vessel may not be used for commercial purposes. If an operator takes a paying passenger onboard without meeting the requirements for an inspected vessel and the passenger is injured or drowns, the vessel may be held to the inspected passenger vessel standard for purposes of criminal liability. If the operator does not have a license and was operating the vessel as an inspected passenger vessel, their insurance company may deny a claim. Compared to this legal and financial distress, acquiring a Coast Guard license and passing a Coast Guard passenger vessel inspection are much less burdensome tasks. It is the owner’s responsibility to determine the legal requirements applicable to the type of operation in which the vessel is to be employed and to ensure every requirement is fully complied with before operations begin. The Coast Guard is committed to the enforcement of all applicable federal regulations for passenger vessels. In accordance with Coast Guard Notice of Violation policies, maximum civil penalties up to $1,100 for failure to have a valid Coast Guard license in possession and available when vessel is carrying passenger(s) for hire will be sought in cases involving unlicensed operators in accordance with 46 CFR 26.20-1, and licensed operators found to be operating in violation of applicable regulations will face suspension and/or revocation of their merchant mariner credentials. The Coast Guard may notify operators’ banks and insurance companies which may change rates and coverage. In addition, the Cost Guard will submit leads to the IRS for unreported income that could result in civil fines and criminal prosecution by the IRS. Further, we will take steps to educate the public in the area about federal requirements for passenger vessels. It is our goal that an educated consumer will seek out only properly licensed operators for their business to ensure their safety. If you have any additional questions, please do not hesitate to contact my staff at the following address and telephone number: Sector Hampton Roads Inspections Division 200 Granby St. Suite 700 Norfolk, VA 23510 (757) 668-5511 __________________ . 30% OFF END OF SEASON SALE <----CLICK.................................Jigging Videos

10-21-2009, 08:00 AM	#3
Questsportfishing Crab mustard is good Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Ft Lauderdale Posts: 982 Credits: 3,302.6 Boat: 28' Custom Bertram Home Port: Port Everglades Best Catch: the one that makes people smile! Occupation: Sport Fishing Captian	what happened to the old... saying ass, gas or grass ... nobody rides for free????

10-21-2009, 10:02 AM	#4
Patudo Sit down Shut up And fish Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 476 Credits: 2,224.0	Another point that came up on reading the regulations: “Passenger for hire” means a passenger for whom consideration is contributed as a condition of carriage, whether directly or indirectly flowing to the owner, charterer, operator, agent, or any other person having interest in the vessel (46 CFR 24.10-1). Therefore, requiring strangers to share expenses constitutes a passenger for hire operation. “Consideration” means an economic benefit or profit including payment of money or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or supplies. It does not include a voluntary sharing of the actual expense of the voyage (46 CFR 175.400). In other words, if the owner, charterer, operator, agent or anyone else who has an interest in the vessel receives any money, fuel, or supplies that the passenger did not freely choose to share as part of the actual cost of the trip, the vessel is carrying a passenger for hire and must meet the following requirements: I read this to mean that if you demand that your guests must pay expenses: that they go fishing with you on condition that they pay expenses - you are carrying passengers for hire within the meaning of the regulations. The vessel and operator then need to fulfil the Coast Guard requirements. If on the other hand your guests of their own free will decide to foot the expenses then they do not count as "passengers for hire". However, (I realize this is controversial) I think that so long as vessel and operator satisfy Coast Guard requirements for carrying passengers for hire, whatever they may be: then every owner should have the right to decide how much charter fee his vessel will sail for. Last edited by Patudo; 10-21-2009 at 10:05 AM.

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10-20-2009, 09:18 PM	#2
frankypettolina killing stuff cause it feels good Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: OCMD Posts: 2,071 Credits: 4,191.0 Boat: Last Call Home Port: Ocean City, MD Best Catch: triple slam in Venezuela 1997 or 31 sails in a day Mexico 98 Occupation: Marine Surveyor and Charterboat Captain	what about the part that says "requiring strangers to share expenses constitutes a passenger for hire operation" and benefit and profit may not mean the same thing. I should probably keep my mouth shut, but again, here we go a group of buddies going on a trip and splitting costs = NOT a charter openly posting on an internet forum with a dollar amount= CHARTER.

10-21-2009, 11:00 AM	#5
frankypettolina killing stuff cause it feels good Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: OCMD Posts: 2,071 Credits: 4,191.0 Boat: Last Call Home Port: Ocean City, MD Best Catch: triple slam in Venezuela 1997 or 31 sails in a day Mexico 98 Occupation: Marine Surveyor and Charterboat Captain	We can play with the wording all day long. I think talented lawyers could probably make an incredible trial costing all of the parties involved to go half broke. The USCG should take this further and make it CLEAR CUT what is a charter and what is not. Just like they should show up at the marinas on a daily basis and hold a cup for the crew members to piss in- then there would be true drug testing. It looks like the USCG is finally tightening up on license renewals, but I still think they need to tighten up on the licensing process to begin with- classes that teach the test and have civilians proctoring the test are a crock- make people study and take the test at a USCG testing facility.

10-21-2009, 02:01 PM	#7
frankypettolina killing stuff cause it feels good Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: OCMD Posts: 2,071 Credits: 4,191.0 Boat: Last Call Home Port: Ocean City, MD Best Catch: triple slam in Venezuela 1997 or 31 sails in a day Mexico 98 Occupation: Marine Surveyor and Charterboat Captain	TomL- that is taken from the debate that has gone on for the past 2 years- there used to be a lot of postings that said something like... "Me and Billy Boy are taking our Canyon Whupper out to the hambone on Saturday to ass rape the tunas- we need 3 more guys at 100 dollars a head- pm me for more details" Now i ask you- charter or private?

10-21-2009, 02:27 PM	#9
frankypettolina killing stuff cause it feels good Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: OCMD Posts: 2,071 Credits: 4,191.0 Boat: Last Call Home Port: Ocean City, MD Best Catch: triple slam in Venezuela 1997 or 31 sails in a day Mexico 98 Occupation: Marine Surveyor and Charterboat Captain	Vinnie- another keyword you used-me and my FRIENDS. I have never had a problem with a true expense sharing trip. This went on allthe time in the pre internet days- hell it went on for ever- one guy has a boat and his drinking buddies meet him on saturday and pony up for gas and bait. Its a great thing. I think when it started going awry was when the internet forums got big. I am not so much bitching about this from a charter boat captains point of view, but trying to make people aware when they are doing something illegal. It is no different than when I survey a "charter boat" and find nothing but Type II PFD's on the boat- I make them aware that they are breaking the law (and believe me i see stuff like this all the time)