Sharing Expenses - 46 CFR 175.400

[Captain Michael Buffington]

[QUOTE=LuckyLady;797263]I always understood it to be if you accepted any predetermined amount of money, insurance and laws would frown down on you. Especially if there was an accident at sea of any sort and you accepted money for that trip, your insurance would not support the claim as you do not have the proper "charter" insurance.

One thing I was told this past summer, that i was not aware of is that if you are a license captain on a private vessel as a guest and the private vessel owner is not a licensed captain and something goes wrong, the guest captain can and will be held liable for anything that goes wrong because he is a licensed captain.[/QUOTE]

Is that true? I do that alot and I did not know that...Thanks Mary!

Mike

[Cpt Dave]

To comply with USCG regulations, the amount paid must be voluntary. If payment (ie....splitting of costs) is a condition of passage, you are a boat for hire. It does not matter if you are splitting cost equally and/or not making a profit (or even taking a loss).

So, if you say to yours "friends", you want to go fishing we'll split the costs and it will be approximately $100 a person to go, your a boat for hire as a payment is required to go on the trip.

[Cpt Dave]

[One thing I was told this past summer, that i was not aware of is that if you are a license captain on a private vessel as a guest and the private vessel owner is not a licensed captain and something goes wrong, the guest captain can and will be held liable for anything that goes wrong because he is a licensed captain.[/QUOTE]

Is that true? I do that alot and I did not know that...Thanks Mary!

Mike

Not true

[costaricasportfishing]

But....

What if....

What if.....


and what if.........

but really.....what if.........

Chances are if you ask what if....

you are wrong.....

haha

[frankypettolina]

Dave makes a point- I have found that if there is any question, any uncertainty, figure you could lose in a court of law.

Sea Draggin, i am not trying to get in a pissing match with you, but lets do some supposing and assuming here. i am assuming you took money from this "stranger" on a fun fishing trip. Lets suppose that "stranger" slipped and fell on your "private" boat after he gave you money to go fishing on your boat- and lets suppose he called his lawyer- now he owns your boat, your bedsheets, your fishing rods.... would you have become such close friends????

Lawsuits become very common in a bad economy, and in the grand scheme of things, taking strangers (or internet "friends" that you have never met before) fishing for money is a relatively new thing. Someone will lose their ass on this one. believe me. it will happen.

If you want to take strangers fishing for money, become a charterboat.

If you want to take people you are friends with fishing and want to split costs, just hope they are truly your friends.

i am not a lawyer and i could make a case out of the CFR that was posted, just imagine what a 500 per hour lawyer could do with it.....

And remember, even if you win, you still have to pay a lawyer to defend you.

One other thing to consider- you take your "friends" out fishing for money, the boat sinks, and your insurance company interviews the passengers aboard. One of your "friends" tells the insurance company he paid to be on your boat. You better hope your policy has a provision for taking charters- if not, kiss the payment goodbye.

[Deep C]

I'm enjoying the hell out of this thread... Takes me back to a day when tollerance was very low. As a kid of 13 I used to fluke fish in my little whaler. I'd fish up river where the fish were big. The head boats worked the bay where they were smaller. Some of their customers would see me cleaning the bigger fish and wanted me to take them up river. "Sure cover my gas..." I had no bait expense as I caught my own. They'ld often grease me an extra five bucks. I was an unlicensed whore. THe head boat boys took exception and I got leaned on... hard...
That started me on the path to do it right. I wound up working as a mate on those boats with all the proper papers from then on. In the beginning that was a work permitn slip, obtained from the local high school and signed by both parents. Not until I had my captains license in hand did I take people on my own boat.

My charterboat is a charterboat through and through... All the insurance, equipment, papers all in order...
Something those on the fence might consider is what we do with the "private" boats. Thats prettty simple. Even though we don't charter, we still set them up as you would a charter boat. Proper equipment, licenses, and so on... With the insurance policy we insure as "limited" charter. X number allowed on the big boat and Y number on the smaller one.

Why the extra steps? First equipping properly as a charter would is a prudent safety maneuver... If you're gonna head off into a potentially dangerous ocean it just makes sense to make safety priority one... Next having a licensed man at the helm reduces insurance rates... Then the rest- Because of the the very variables being discussed in this thread... A guest is a guest in my book. Paying or otherwise. Covering the bases with proper insurance that would cover any any situation that could be questionable.

Going the next step to full incorporation further reduces liabilities. It has tax benefits but those usually only benefit those who already have enough scratch to write off against. It is also viable to show losses for no more than three years...

For those in question... Take the extra steps to do it right. Its worth it...

[Sea Draggin]

One other thing to consider- you take your "friends" out fishing for money, the boat sinks, and your insurance company interviews the passengers aboard. One of your "friends" tells the insurance company he paid to be on your boat. .

Technically we normally don't split expenses until the end of the day, when we know what they actually are. So, if the boat goes down on the water, no exchange has taken place, so there is no more exposure whether you have know the people for 10 years or 10 minutes.

Time of exchange is a big factor I think. With many charters, you pay before you leave the dock (and at Oregon Inlet the boat doesn't pull away until then.) With fun trips, folks split expenses at the end of the day instead of the beginning, because there is no way to know otherwise. Although when I had my Grady, I could tell you within about $20 of what the expenses where going to be that day, simply because I knew where we were going and what it was going to take to get there and back.


The other factor any lawyer could argue is that "consideration for profit' constitutes a charter, based on the way the rules are written (I didn't write them, I only copied and pasted what was written.) Only sharing basic expenses doesn't come anywhere close to the real daily operation costs. So no one EVER has to worry about coming close to being profitable, especially if you factor depreciation, insurance, taxes, etc. on an offshore boat.


Regarding someone getting hurt and sky is falling approach that so many opponents take: even basic boating policies will cover that under the liability clause. No different that having a passengers in your car. If you applied this argument to car pooling, millions of people across the country would be criminals.

From the State Farm site:

Liability coverage includes:

* Watercraft Liability coverage provides protection for legal liability because of an accident resulting from the ownership, maintenance, or use of your watercraft, including bodily injury, property damage and legal defense.
* Watercraft Medical Payments coverage pays medical expenses up to the limits in the policy for you, your resident relatives and other occupants of the boat injured by an accident arising out of the ownership, maintenance, or use of the watercraft.



Now if you don't have insurance on your boat, you probably shouldn't take people out. Then again, you will drive past uninsured motorist on your way home today.

Cheerio.

[eppefour]

I just got this response from The USCG. my question appears at the bottom. the response is first

Mr. Eppehimer,
It is no longer considered recreational once you charge the passengers for the trip. If any compensation is received for the trip, it is considered a charter.

Thank you for contacting the Mariner Information Call Center.
If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us.

Jessica Barker
Call Center Specialist
Security Assistance Corp.
Contractor to United States Coast Guard
100 Forbes Drive
Martinsburg, WV 25404
(P) (888) 427-5662
(F) (304)-433-3416
(E) iasknmc@uscg.mil

As of 15-Apr-2009, all merchant mariners are required to hold a valid TWIC card; administered through the TSA. You may contact TWIC by calling 1-866-347-8942 or visit www.tsa.gov/twic


-----Original Message-----
From: eppefour@comcast.net [mailto:eppefour@comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 10:23 AM
To: D05-SMB-NMC-Questions
Subject: Other

From: John W Eppehimer
(Using the Contact IASKNMC form on the NMC website at http://www.uscg.mil/nmc/contact_iasknmc.asp)
10:22:34 AM, 10/22/2009
Subject: Other
_____________________________________
What are the guidelines the Coast Guard uses to determine if a fishing trip is a charter ? We have been discussing this issue for a few years and Have no definitive answer as to when recreation stops and charter begins. Could you answer this by email or online at Sharing Expenses - 46 CFR 175.400

Thank you
_____________________________________

Sender's information:
--Name:
John W Eppehimer

--Address:
66 Burnside drive
Egg Harbor Twp NJ 08234

--Phone:
6094257816

--Emails:
Typed into the form: [Email]

Actually sent from: eppefour@comcast.net

_____________________________________
All fields:
Name: John W Eppehimer
Comments: What are the guidelines the Coast Guard uses to determine if a fishing trip is a charter ? We have been discussing this issue for a few years and Have no definitive answer as to when recreation stops and charter begins. Could you answer this by email or online at
http://www.sportfishermen.com/board/f9/sharing-expenses-46-cfr-175-400-a-274925.html

Thank you

[frankypettolina]

Thanks John....

Now where have i heard this before

Sorry guys, but this is what I have been trying to tell you. maybe you will believe it now.

[Sea Draggin]

Frankie,
You know that I have a lot of respect for you and it goes without saying.

However, one day I had a coastie stop me in Taylors Creek because the numbers on the side of my boat were too big. You know the ones required on commercial boats by the M.S. Act.

I'll go with what is in writing over what someones says all day long. I had to carry my red book of rules in Morehead all the time, because of responses like the one above from the coast guard.

I feel the operator in Mr E's case has the vocabulary compensation and consideration confused.

Respectfully.