Removing Billfish From Water - a No-No - Page 4

Squidnation · 10-13-2009, 05:08 PM

just a question. Honestly - how many fish have people caught with circle hooks in them. If it is more then 5 then i would like to hear about it. I know my total is 0. I honestly think that over all more harm is done trying to remove a circle hook then just cutting him off as close as possible with a leader cutting tool. Especially when people grab the fish and hold on for dear life and drain the rest of the life and fight out of a billfish before trying to remove the hook. Sure I know some people take great care and can do it with having the fish freak out. But lets take away the top and bottom 5% of the people on the care meter and think about the other 90% that are ignorantly trying to do the right thing or those that just don't care and I think more harm is done trying to remove the hook. Just IMHO

krabill · 10-13-2009, 05:25 PM

I pulled a nice rusty circle from the jaw of one in the open this year. It looked like it was causing a little pain, so I helped him out.

rarhomes · 10-13-2009, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squidnation

just a question. Honestly - how many fish have people caught with circle hooks in them. If it is more then 5 then i would like to hear about it. I know my total is 0. I honestly think that over all more harm is done trying to remove a circle hook then just cutting him off as close as possible with a leader cutting tool. Especially when people grab the fish and hold on for dear life and drain the rest of the life and fight out of a billfish before trying to remove the hook. Sure I know some people take great care and can do it with having the fish freak out. But lets take away the top and bottom 5% of the people on the care meter and think about the other 90% that are ignorantly trying to do the right thing or those that just don't care and I think more harm is done trying to remove the hook. Just IMHO

Bill, you are 100% correct.

I have caught 100's of tarpon and know that the last 10' of battle can and probably does cost the fish his live (notice I said feet and not minutes). And have you have ever watched the Tarpon tournament on ESPN from Boca Grand Pass where they tow the fish to the scales

? I would bet 0% lives. Hell in that tournament sharks eat 1/2 of them before they are caught and the other 1/2 die after weigh in.

And they are bitchin about an anglers first time bill fish picture ? Give me a break.

Capt Rick

Oh one more thing, it's OK to kill a tarpon if you bought your tag.

Deep C · 10-13-2009, 05:56 PM

Bill you bring an interesting piece to the conversation. You and I both did circle tests and I believe we were both surprised at how long they took to rust when submerged especially when they start to go off just looking at em wrong above the surface...
I have caught a shark with a circle in it along with a very sick looking dolphin. My mate has caught a single tuna with one in its gut (the very rare exception). Personally neither of us have caught a billfish with one in it. I find this curious as I usually catch upwards of three to five billfish and another three or so sharks in a typical year with "J" hooks in them.
I reported that when I first switched to circle for live ballyhoo sailfishing I was hooking most every place but the mouth. And even missing a couple... That was corrected by going to the snell as recommended by several in the know here. That problem never showed again and come to think of it I don't think I have had a circle set other than in jaw or mandible since I made that adjustment.
I'm wondering if others continue to have issues with hooks setting in places other than jaw or joint because they have not switched to snelling...

sanchoco · 10-13-2009, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueH20Boss

yeah but its legal for longliners to kill hundreds of them a day......this countries laws are so ass backwards.

Laws Aside, Lets get our own house in line before we complain about others. If you could count all the fish killed by sports fishermen needlessly I bet it would equal the by catch. If there is a 50% mortality rate with J hooks like the studies show and another 20% mortality from poorly released fish and 10% mortality from stupidity of intentional killing. Add up all of the released fish and multiply by those percentages and world wide WE( non-commercial) fishermen kill 10's of thousands of bill fish each year.

Isn't it about time that we as a group do something to increase fish populations instead of just blaming the longliners. Ducks, Wild Turkeys, Deer and other hunted animals have made comebacks because the hunters did something to enhance their sport where as fishermen only take and complain. they never give back to the sport.

I am constantly trying to fish in ways that reduce mortality of my released fish and am open to any suggestions as to how to do that better. Shouldn't that be the what we are talking about not complaining about the longliners.

rarhomes · 10-13-2009, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanchoco

Laws Aside, Lets get our own house in line before we complain about others. If you could count all the fish killed by sports fishermen needlessly I bet it would equal the by catch. If there is a 50% mortality rate with J hooks like the studies show and another 20% mortality from poorly released fish and 10% mortality from stupidity of intentional killing. Add up all of the released fish and multiply by those percentages and world wide WE( non-commercial) fishermen kill 10's of thousands of bill fish each year.

Isn't it about time that we as a group do something to increase fish populations instead of just blaming the longliners. Ducks, Wild Turkeys, Deer and other hunted animals have made comebacks because the hunters did something to enhance their sport where as fishermen only take and complain. they never give back to the sport.

I am constantly trying to fish in ways that reduce mortality of my released fish and am open to any suggestions as to how to do that better. Shouldn't that be the what we are talking about not complaining about the longliners.

I hear you, but it's hard to compare hunting to fishing. People making money off their land have proved what it takes to get the best results. This makes it easy for game biologist to make good educated laws. As long as they get licenses money they could give a crap about the farmers land.

Fishing on the other hand has a lot of $$$ involved and laws are made accordingly. And without the sportsman involved then can do whatever they want. They (the politicians) don't what sport fisherman to get in the way.

Capt. Rick

DropinBack · 10-13-2009, 06:52 PM

I often hear people say that 50% of billfish caught on a J hook die. WHERE IN THE HECK DO YOU FIND THIS INFO? Lets see REAL facts? Or is that just another made up number like the ones that say 99.9% of the circle hooked fish live?

Deep C · 10-13-2009, 06:58 PM

First lets get something straight. No legitimate study shows 50% mortality from j or any other kind of hooks. The NMFS study shows .49% thats half a percent or 1 in 200 dead fish due to hook in dropbacks less than fifteen seconds. In drop backs of over fifteen seconds that number jumps up to 3.5% and in over 30 seconds it escallates to 10% or slightly more. Do you drop back 30 or more seconds? I sure as shit don't...

Their study was based oin inteaction with over 2000 billfish. Even Dr.Prince who's one pop up tag study with only ten fish tagged in each way, acknowledges that the test was inconclusive due to several factors.

Yes we have to police ourselves and as a whole the populations of both rec and comm have done an amazing job from what it once was. I remember racks filled with sailfish as a kid. Some headed for the taxidermist, a stray one headed for a smoker but most just tossed out like trash. I can't remember the last time I saw a dead sail on the dock.

I hear the doom and gloom stuff and I want to puke. It sounds like Gore and his global warming bullshit. Its arrogant to believe that a couple hundred dead is going to impact their stocks one iota. They lay millions of eggs. I have opened mahi with 50 or more juvenile billfish in them. I have witnessed big blues with bills from smaller species embedded in the roofs of their mouths. I would venture a guess and say the makos in the Chub Cay pocket kill more marlin each year than recs do in the entire north Atlantic...

Can man hurt them? That answer is yes but not as anglers or even byproduct of comm longlines... Targeted purse seins can deplete large stocks fast and that practice runs ramant. ts other thing though that are the underlying culprits here. Killing off the food being huge... Bunkers, herring, mackerel, squid, butterfish, being killed by the metric megatons. Then we have other bait kill equally as bad but not as easy to see. The destruction of bait spawning grounds due to development is a real problem. I see it in New Jersey where I grew up. Bait stocks decimated because a big footprint house or condo development sits where its shallow water or marsh land used to be. Thats the stuff we should be bitching about.

Give the fish a little credit for being tougher than we think. I have had tag returns from fish I never thought would make it. There have been several instances of individual fish having been tagged and recaptured several times... Lets as a whole though think about those other real killers mentioned above...

canyongear · 10-13-2009, 07:40 PM

This whole debate is great...I certainly believe in preservation of the species however and by whatever rules, regs or personal credo's each has...

however it just dances around the reality of the issues

Money, Tournaments, Hunting and Food vs Sport.

Meaning, I Hunt for Tuna, just like a Deer Hunter.

Two big differences there, Tuna can be released if so desired or mandated. Deer however, can't if you misjudge the prey. Deer has seasons, Tuna has size and catch limits and can be released to live.

There are no choices of less damaging bullets for a possible release.

A Kill tournament, is a Kill tournament. J Hooks or Circle Hooks what difference does it make. Some perhaps, mandates sure help.

Hawaii Marlin..are hung all the time as well as many other places in the world, tournament or not. A food source.

Hunters don't have special stun bullets, to safely takedown and release whatever game they shoot, do they?

When's the last time you heard of a catch and release Bear tournament or an Elk tournament?

Hunting is Hunting, Killing is Killing, Tournaments that pay only on Killing are fine, why limit the killing with special bullets (hooks)? so to speak?

Not quite sure I got my point across, but it seems to me that Big Game Fishing has been way over regulated due to the money aspect surrounding the sport..

Which, brings this all the way back around to the FOOD issue and commercial harvesting. If Caribou, could be found in great numbers as Tuna, don't you think the commercial exploitation of the species would exist? Or pick any land based species for sport..it's interesting that Hunting and Fishing take on two entirely diffrent mantra's when in reality they are exactly the same.

You either Kill for Sport or Food, or you Kill for Sport, Food and Commercial reasons..seems fishing gets the over exposure and the rest is pretty quiet.

We will take fish out of the water for surgery to help the survival rate. Is that wrong?, that's what im hearing.."just cut the leader"..The whitey in the photo hit a marlin lure with a single 10/0 J hook that lodged between this eyes. There was no way we were going to just cut and release. She was out of the water for approx. a minute two at the most. Surgery performed, gently and with minimal man handling to avoid the slime removal, gently placed back in the water and slow trolled till she was ready to swim..

Point is, just cutting the leader can and does work. Taking a minute to remove a hook in badly hooked fish I believe is the right thing to do..Circle or J..doesn't matter.

sanchoco · 10-14-2009, 01:53 PM

Yes, Hunting and fishing are similar. the difference is the people that do the sport. Hunters give something back to their sport by enhancing the environment and purchasing land to be used only for hunting. What has any fisherman given back to the fish(billfish). we only take and take and take. releasing a fish is not giving back to the stock it is just status quo. Duck hunters have payed farmers to build ponds and lakes. Turkey and deer hunters plant food plots and increase the food sources for their prey.

Should we not be discussing how we can reduce our damage to the stocks and what we can do to increase them instead of blaming everyone else.

10-13-2009, 06:52 PM	#37
DropinBack Sit down Shut up And fish Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 465 Credits: 8,921.3 Occupation: Mate	I often hear people say that 50% of billfish caught on a J hook die. WHERE IN THE HECK DO YOU FIND THIS INFO? Lets see REAL facts? Or is that just another made up number like the ones that say 99.9% of the circle hooked fish live? Last edited by DropinBack; 10-13-2009 at 06:53 PM.

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10-13-2009, 05:25 PM	#32
krabill Yep, your gonna need stitches Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Eastern Shore Posts: 91 Credits: 2,143.2 Boat: Topless Home Port: Greenbackville, VA Best Catch: 8oz Bluegill	I pulled a nice rusty circle from the jaw of one in the open this year. It looked like it was causing a little pain, so I helped him out.

10-13-2009, 05:56 PM	#34
Deep C Master of all things wet Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Plywood State Posts: 13,720 Credits: 43,451.8 Boat: Several Home Port: Palm Beach Best Catch: Mrs Deep Occupation: Killin Stuff	Bill you bring an interesting piece to the conversation. You and I both did circle tests and I believe we were both surprised at how long they took to rust when submerged especially when they start to go off just looking at em wrong above the surface... I have caught a shark with a circle in it along with a very sick looking dolphin. My mate has caught a single tuna with one in its gut (the very rare exception). Personally neither of us have caught a billfish with one in it. I find this curious as I usually catch upwards of three to five billfish and another three or so sharks in a typical year with "J" hooks in them. I reported that when I first switched to circle for live ballyhoo sailfishing I was hooking most every place but the mouth. And even missing a couple... That was corrected by going to the snell as recommended by several in the know here. That problem never showed again and come to think of it I don't think I have had a circle set other than in jaw or mandible since I made that adjustment. I'm wondering if others continue to have issues with hooks setting in places other than jaw or joint because they have not switched to snelling...

10-13-2009, 06:58 PM	#38
Deep C Master of all things wet Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Plywood State Posts: 13,720 Credits: 43,451.8 Boat: Several Home Port: Palm Beach Best Catch: Mrs Deep Occupation: Killin Stuff	First lets get something straight. No legitimate study shows 50% mortality from j or any other kind of hooks. The NMFS study shows .49% thats half a percent or 1 in 200 dead fish due to hook in dropbacks less than fifteen seconds. In drop backs of over fifteen seconds that number jumps up to 3.5% and in over 30 seconds it escallates to 10% or slightly more. Do you drop back 30 or more seconds? I sure as shit don't... Their study was based oin inteaction with over 2000 billfish. Even Dr.Prince who's one pop up tag study with only ten fish tagged in each way, acknowledges that the test was inconclusive due to several factors. Yes we have to police ourselves and as a whole the populations of both rec and comm have done an amazing job from what it once was. I remember racks filled with sailfish as a kid. Some headed for the taxidermist, a stray one headed for a smoker but most just tossed out like trash. I can't remember the last time I saw a dead sail on the dock. I hear the doom and gloom stuff and I want to puke. It sounds like Gore and his global warming bullshit. Its arrogant to believe that a couple hundred dead is going to impact their stocks one iota. They lay millions of eggs. I have opened mahi with 50 or more juvenile billfish in them. I have witnessed big blues with bills from smaller species embedded in the roofs of their mouths. I would venture a guess and say the makos in the Chub Cay pocket kill more marlin each year than recs do in the entire north Atlantic... Can man hurt them? That answer is yes but not as anglers or even byproduct of comm longlines... Targeted purse seins can deplete large stocks fast and that practice runs ramant. ts other thing though that are the underlying culprits here. Killing off the food being huge... Bunkers, herring, mackerel, squid, butterfish, being killed by the metric megatons. Then we have other bait kill equally as bad but not as easy to see. The destruction of bait spawning grounds due to development is a real problem. I see it in New Jersey where I grew up. Bait stocks decimated because a big footprint house or condo development sits where its shallow water or marsh land used to be. Thats the stuff we should be bitching about. Give the fish a little credit for being tougher than we think. I have had tag returns from fish I never thought would make it. There have been several instances of individual fish having been tagged and recaptured several times... Lets as a whole though think about those other real killers mentioned above...

10-14-2009, 01:53 PM	#40
sanchoco I just got squirted with ballyhoo poop Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: mexico, central america Posts: 43 Credits: 497.9 Boat: maverick 18master angler, Luhrs 32 open, Contender 31 Home Port: panama city, FL Best Catch: Tripple header spearfish Occupation: captain	Yes, Hunting and fishing are similar. the difference is the people that do the sport. Hunters give something back to their sport by enhancing the environment and purchasing land to be used only for hunting. What has any fisherman given back to the fish(billfish). we only take and take and take. releasing a fish is not giving back to the stock it is just status quo. Duck hunters have payed farmers to build ponds and lakes. Turkey and deer hunters plant food plots and increase the food sources for their prey. Should we not be discussing how we can reduce our damage to the stocks and what we can do to increase them instead of blaming everyone else.