Removing Billfish From Water - a No-No

[captnemo]

Circle hooks J hooks can be debated forever. I personally don't see any great advantage of circle hook. They still gut hook fish and they are impossible to remove, thus more problems for the fish for the next month or so.

Seriously?

This is just silly, the science is there, circle hooks have FAR less mortality then J's, that is not debatable that is a fact, if your still not using circles for release billfishing, something is wrong.

[rarhomes]

Seriously?

This is just silly, the science is there, circle hooks have FAR less mortality then J's, that is not debatable that is a fact, if your still not using circles for release billfishing, something is wrong.

Like I said we can debate it forever. I am sure there is one around somewhere but I have never seen a scientific report to support mortality rates. And to be totally honest I am not sure I would believe it anyway. Kind of like the Red Snapper studys.

And yes I do use circle hooks because it's the law.

Fred, you touched on another reason why circles may not be my favorite. It's the mentality that says "let him have till it comes out his ass". I here it every day on every boat.

As far as laws and honesty goes, sorry I guess I am just fed up with all BS and law after law we as rec fisherman and hunters have to adhere to. You almost need to have a full time lawyer on the boat or in the tree stand.

Capt. Rick

[ADDfishing]

I guess I am just fed up with all BS and law after law we as rec fisherman and hunters have to adhere to. You almost need to have a full time lawyer on the boat or in the tree stand.

Capt. Rick

You hit the nail on the head! I've joked for years that I need a legal staff to keep track of seasons, mulitiple size limit/bag limit changes, slot/no slots, restricted areas, areas I need a free permit - only to find out the permit now costs another $20, call in registration numbers, and on and on and on...

It is what it is, but it would be nice if we could put a limit on the rules, and maybe get rid of one before we make up more.

I still can't hunt private land in Delaware on Sunday - one of the two days a regular Joe has to spend the day in the woods if he so chooses. I can fish - just not hunt. It's a day of rest for the game... Well, guess what... I haven't touched the farm I lease since opening day - Sept. 1 becuase there's still 8' tall corn. They've had enough rest.

Sorry for the sidetrack and mini rant.

[Younger]

You sure about that Deep? Check pages 12 and 21 of your Chubathon 2009 thread. The pictures don't lie.

Chubathon 09

[searich]

Mortality by way of J-hooks is much, much higher, and yes, there have been plenty of studies that prove it. A 2008 comparison study was conducted in Iztapa, Guatemala in order to assess the impact of circle vs. J-hooks with both live and dead bait on sailfish. The results were dramatic revealing the benefits or circle hooks in billfish conservation. A total of 360 Pacific sailfish were caught with 235 on circle hooks and 125 on J-hooks.

Significantly more sailfish were deep hooked in the throat and stomach with "J" hooks (46%), as compared with circle hooks (2%). Only one sailfish (1%) was foul hooked using circle hooks, while 11 (9%) sailfish caught on "J" hooks were foul hooked. Sailfish caught on "J" hooks are 21 times more likely to suffer hook-related bleeding than those caught on circle hooks.

[captnemo]

Like I said we can debate it forever. I am sure there is one around somewhere but I have never seen a scientific report to support mortality rates. And to be totally honest I am not sure I would believe it anyway. Kind of like the Red Snapper studys.

And yes I do use circle hooks because it's the law.

No sense in debating facts...gonna be a REALLY short debate.

Where is it a law to use circle hooks for billfish?

[Captain Fred Archer]

Don't get me wrong. I too dislike too many rules and regs. That one about Sunday hunting used to really gall me back when I lived and hunted in New Jersey. It's a "blue law" and goes way back and has religious connotations that I won't touch here, but yeah, I sure hated the fact that a working stiff couldn't get two days of hunting out of the two that most of us had available to us. I wish that they would change that stuff for all of us, but we are probably going to have to continue living with it.

When it comes to new laws concerning such things as protecting marlin populations by requiring no boating of the fish and circle hooks, I am all for them. One of the reasons being that the alternative, and believe me, there are those who would love to see it, would be to ban marlin fishing altogether. Remember, that is within their power and scope. So anything that keeps that from happening, especially such simple and easy to do things as using a certain kind of hook and limiting the handling of the fish that in most cases are going to be released anyway is more than fine with me.

RA. You make a good point with that "let them eat it forever" thing that you hear so much about. But I have said and will say again that it's bullshit that I believe has come about because when it comes to drifting and bottom fishing, where circle hooks started out for the most part, it is true. (Bear in mind, though, that a deadsticked bait actually hooks the heck out of bottom fish on circles, so that "take your time" thing is pretty automatic in that case. Trolling is much different.)

Unfortunately, and I don't like saying this because I really don't want to offend anybody, but some who are actually new to the circle hook game perpetuate the "let 'em eat it" myth, to the detriment of both the fish and the fisherman. By the same token, I have been using circle hooks in both lures and trolled baits for a mighty long time and I get very frustrated when I try to pass on what I've learned and it is repudiated by those with what amounts to damned little time using, experimenting, and learning about circles. It is very much a case of "the blind leading the blind" in some cases, no matter who likes that or doesn't.

There, I've said both things that I don't really like saying, but both are true and I feel better having said them...hoping that I don't offend anybody in the process. But if I did, que serra, serra, amigo.

When it comes to trolling, casting and retrieving, different rules apply and if you do it right, gut and gill hooked and even snagged and eye hooked and blinded fish (double J hook rigs being the primary culprit here) are almost unheard of. That being the case, I applaud that particular new hook rule.

Searich and Nemo, thank you for detailing the reports - and there have been many - that studied J and C hook mortality rates. This subject has been scrutinized many more times by biologists with no axes to grind, just like I don't have any, and in every single case, the C's have won by a large margin. I have also seen studies of the consequences of rough handling versus no boating of caught marlin using archival tags that track the fish for given periods of time that are just as convincing that handling those fish is very bad for the survival of a high percentage of the boated ones and even to the ones that are billed and have the hooks removed.

We fishermen can be a difficult lot to teach new things to. No one knows that better than I. The facts are that in both cases of these "good for the fish" things, the C's and not handling released billfish, the majority of us had to be dragged, with much kicking and screaming, and actually forced into doing what was and is best for the resource and consequently, us. Think about that. It's true. So sometimes, new laws and rules are good, even though we don't like them at first. I believe that will be the case here, too. Bigger and healthier marlin populations will be nothing but good for all of us and those who we take fishing.

But I sure wish we could hunt on Sunday!

[Deep C]

Seriously?

This is just silly, the science is there, circle hooks have FAR less mortality then J's, that is not debatable that is a fact, if your still not using circles for release billfishing, something is wrong.

Nemo
The law is that circles are to be used exclusively in natural and combo natural/ artificial baits in any competition sport fishing event where prizes are awarded for billfish. Pure artificial baits are exempt from this regulation...
Youre obviously falling for the propaganda campaign... In fact there is data to support that circles are detrimental. Yes the gut hooking ratio is lower and that only substantially on drop backs longer than fifteen seconds. Under fifteen seconds the rate of incident was .49% for J and .45% circle which translates to roughly one in 200 fish hooked in a most likely mortal way versus one in 202.
What was not studied at the time that is now being looked at is that they more often set in the mandibular joint of the fish. The more difficult unhooking of a circle has corresponding remifications that more hooks will be set free with the fish. The obstruction located in that same madibular joint causes festering and eventual loss of use of that same joint.
Loss of ability to use the joint results in inability to feed and eventual starvation... This claim is backed by studies continuing where netted tuna with long line circles were recovered. Their condition was overwhelmingly poor and emaciated to the point of nearly unsellable condition.
Further evidence will take a while to catalog but early indications are that far fewer circle hook tag returns percentage wise to those that have been "J" released over the years...
The measure to put them in place for competition purposes was NMFS answer to a suit brought forth by an enviromental group from all places, Arizona. Originally they claimed a 90% reduction in white marlin populations due to overfishing. Their attempt was to ban longlining and filed suit under the premise that NMFS had never enacted rules to protect the white marlin. We as private sector anglers had "The protection" levied against our side of the issue.
NMFS itself figures that the enactment of the circle regulation will possibly save as many white marlin as eighty in a whole year of fishing by all parties.
I have switched to circle and find the catch rate on naked bait to be considerably higher than that of J. Its the rule and we abide...

[Captain Fred Archer]

I agree with not leaving a circle, or any other kind of hook in fish, regardless of species or where the hook is located. And yes, conventional circle hooks can be difficult to remove from the typical location due to the barb restricting that act. Since we bridled our baits anyway, that barb served no positive purpose, with the additional positive factor of removing them being the way that circle hooks attach themselves to fish. I have written here and in many other places that releasing healthy fish, and not just marlin, was a top priority for us. So we addressed the issue by removing the barb, thus eliminating the major impediment to fast, clean hook removal, including doing so with the appropriate de-hooker to minimize handling at boatside.

As previously noted, this had no discernable effect on fish throwing or pulling hooks during fights, and that was a huge number of them over the years. No way would we have continued the practice if we thought it cost us landed fish.

It is one of those things that one should try before making a final decision, which I encourage all to do.

[rarhomes]

Mortality by way of J-hooks is much, much higher, and yes, there have been plenty of studies that prove it. A 2008 comparison study was conducted in Iztapa, Guatemala in order to assess the impact of circle vs. J-hooks with both live and dead bait on sailfish. The results were dramatic revealing the benefits or circle hooks in billfish conservation. A total of 360 Pacific sailfish were caught with 235 on circle hooks and 125 on J-hooks.

Significantly more sailfish were deep hooked in the throat and stomach with "J" hooks (46%), as compared with circle hooks (2%). Only one sailfish (1%) was foul hooked using circle hooks, while 11 (9%) sailfish caught on "J" hooks were foul hooked. Sailfish caught on "J" hooks are 21 times more likely to suffer hook-related bleeding than those caught on circle hooks.

1% and you expect me to believe the rest of this graph ?

Look, I didn't want to side track this thread and get off on circle hooks.

The whole issue for me is the idea of making new laws. I am all for protecting our resources but dammit, a drop of blood here and another there. Hell we are loosing our rights every day. Do we ever get a chance to vote on anything anymore? Who makes up this shit ?

And yes Fred, there are those who would love to see it, would be to ban marlin fishing and all fishing altogether. Remember, that is within their power and scope.

And that's the truth Mr. captnemo


Capt Rick