Old or New. Which school is better?

[Anders]

When I was about 6 yrs old my friends dad showed us how to catch bluegill using a small piece of cheese on a hook.One day we ran out of cheese and were going to call it quits.As we were getting ready to leave I noticed a Mcdonalds french fry carton in the bushes,it was red on one side and yellow on the other.A light bulb went off in my head,I ripped off a small piece and threw it in the water,the bluegill were all over it. I'm never afraid to try new stuff.Thats why 10% of the fisherman catch 90% of the fish.

I bet more things are discovered because there is nothing else to do than use what you got when you got it. Great story

[Big Jay]

The thing that amazes me most is trying to fathom how people think of these things. It just blows my mind. For example:

Sluggos. Who would have ever thought to use a bass lure for Giant Tuna?

Brilliant brilliant minds out there.

High speed wahoo trolling, speed jigging, etc.

[Captain Fred Archer]

Deep,

You know that I am not one for Internet battles for sure, but I see a clear contradiction in what you wrote...circle hooks. As a leading proponent of them for way over fifteen years and having taken repeated beatings from "old schoolers" for many years about whether they'd work or not, it sure as hell is "new school" for the majority, and the archives will bear that out in spades. Actually, it took the NMFS to force most to even try those dreaded things "that won't work", not me or Tim Choate, or David Brackmann, Chris Badsy and Bobby Dobson. To me, that is the true negative of those who reject the new...it influences others who wind up not trying new and better things. As you know, Deep, I have all the respect in the world for you, so please, don't take this as some kind of bash...it isn't. It's just an area where we differ a bit on and one that I have taken a lot of heat over for a lot of years, so I have to stand up for myself. Peace, bro!

Here's an example of what I'm talking about here...Check the post about fishing lures with circle hooks in the Circle Hook Forum. It's been up there for over a week now. And last time I checked, it had more hits than any other post on there. But guess what? Not one, single comment, question, or whatever! It ain't personal, but I'll tell you what, it sure does show me, at least, that the "new" (and I have been running circles on my lures for over fifteen years now - they sure as hell ain't new to me - and have found them far superior to J's AND I have ZERO vested interest of any kind in whether people use them or not), scares the hell out of people, or whatever. I find that pretty amazing.

MarlinStar,

Right on, bro. I clearly see your love for the mystical lure making game and the biggest reward that you get out of it - people catching something on a thing that you created with your own hands and put a bit of your soul into. It is a wonderful thing that affects me too.

And that thing about beat-up, raggedy-assed lures catching great is SO true! It is something that only those who catch a lot of billfish are aware of and that doesn't dawn on even some who do. I used to joke around and tell anyone looking at a new lure of mine, or one that Bart or Roddy Hays had sent me and say, "Yeah, it sure is purty. Now, to get it ready to really catch fish, I'm gonna drag it up to the house and back behind my truck"...and I wasn't kidding! Blew peoples' minds! Raggedy-assed lures are the kind! Never mind why.

"Lures that run at three feet"? Why in the world would you want a lure to do that? After all, everybody knows that a good marlin lure should not only be pretty and rigged like a real baitfish, with the dark color up top and the light one below and that it should pop and smoke like the dickens, "cause marlin love that stuff", right?

WRONG!

Please go to the website and read the article on GraveDiggers. I think you'll get a kick out of it.

First shot is a CaboTiger GraveDigger. Next, the swimmer (cedar plug? Nah!) Then GraveDigger down and dirty, doing "the wiggle". Then how I rig my own personal skirts. Then, the famous Petrolero. Hey, it's upside down, ain't it? Nope, that's exactly how it runs. Hmm, colors upside down? How are the birds gonna see it, the poor things? And the fish? Why, that thing must stand out like a sore thumb...or an injured baitfish maybe? You betcha!

Website www.FredArchersWorldofFishing.com

[Captain Fred Archer]

Say Hey Jay,

I think it helps to have spent a lot of time riding "The Short Boat"!

(Speaking only for myself, of course.)

Beep, beep. Run, Freddy, run!

Website www.FredArchersWorldofFishing.com

[tom@marlinstar]

Deep,

You know that I am not one for Internet battles for sure, but I see a clear contradiction in what you wrote...circle hooks. As a leading proponent of them for way over fifteen years and having taken repeated beatings from "old schoolers" for many years about whether they'd work or not, it sure as hell is "new school" for the majority, and the archives will bear that out in spades. Actually, it took the NMFS to force most to even try those dreaded things "that won't work", not me or Tim Choate, or David Brackmann, Chris Badsy and Bobby Dobson. To me, that is the true negative of those who reject the new...it influences others who wind up not trying new and better things. As you know, Deep, I have all the respect in the world for you, so please, don't take this as some kind of bash...it isn't. It's just an area where we differ a bit on and one that I have taken a lot of heat over for a lot of years, so I have to stand up for myself. Peace, bro!

Here's an example of what I'm talking about here...Check the post about fishing lures with circle hooks in the Circle Hook Forum. It's been up there for over a week now. And last time I checked, it had more hits than any other post on there. But guess what? Not one, single comment, question, or whatever! It ain't personal, but I'll tell you what, it sure does show me, at least, that the "new" (and I have been running circles on my lures for over fifteen years now - they sure as hell ain't new to me - and have found them far superior to J's AND I have ZERO vested interest of any kind in whether people use them or not), scares the hell out of people, or whatever. I find that pretty amazing.

MarlinStar,

Right on, bro. I clearly see your love for the mystical lure making game and the biggest reward that you get out of it - people catching something on a thing that you created with your own hands and put a bit of your soul into. It is a wonderful thing that affects me too.

And that thing about beat-up, raggedy-assed lures catching great is SO true! It is something that only those who catch a lot of billfish are aware of and that doesn't dawn on even some who do. I used to joke around and tell anyone looking at a new lure of mine, or one that Bart or Roddy Hays had sent me and say, "Yeah, it sure is purty. Now, to get it ready to really catch fish, I'm gonna drag it up to the house and back behind my truck"...and I wasn't kidding! Blew peoples' minds! Raggedy-assed lures are the kind! Never mind why.

"Lures that run at three feet"? Why in the world would you want a lure to do that? After all, everybody knows that a good marlin lure should not only be pretty and rigged like a real baitfish, with the dark color up top and the light one below and that it should pop and smoke like the dickens, "cause marlin love that stuff", right?

WRONG!

Please go to the website and read the article on GraveDiggers. I think you'll get a kick out of it.

First shot is a CaboTiger GraveDigger. Next, the swimmer (cedar plug? Nah!) Then GraveDigger down and dirty, doing "the wiggle". Then how I rig my own personal skirts. Then, the famous Petrolero. Hey, it's upside down, ain't it? Nope, that's exactly how it runs. Hmm, colors upside down? How are the birds gonna see it, the poor things? And the fish? Why, that thing must stand out like a sore thumb...or an injured baitfish maybe? You betcha!

Website www.FredArchersWorldofFishing.com

Capt. Fred,

Damn, talk about echoing my reality! You hit the nail on the head so many times I feel like Mrs. Cleo just gave me a free reading!

The first two lures I made that I was proud enough to call my own just happened to be a little different..."Hey you have the color on the wrong side!" "Uh no I said....the color is on the bottom...I want this thing to pop compared to the prop wash,bubble trails and blue sky.Fish coming up from the deep will see it easier"......"Naw..you got the color on the wrong side...it needs to be on top". Some guys just aren't open to the simplest ideas, I sure learned this quick.

If everyone thinks that all of the possible lure head shapes have already been done and that all we can do is re-invent....well I call BS. I have a new lure that looks like no other....swims great BUT.......it is a mofo to sand. My Tomohawk is a mofo to sand but this lure takes the cake. So, I am more geared towards something that is easier to produce, yet still unique that acts a little different than most lures.

Fred, I agree with all of your ideas. We all have to take fish Psychology 101. Fish strike out of hunger, aggression,boredom?? Does a Marlin's brain allow all of these attributes? My main influence on designing and producing the Tomahawk as a swimming lure, because we all know swimming lures are the hardest to fish and the least pulled, but I believe they add an advantage to the spread.But, as I was saying in 2006 fishing the World Cup in Kona, we had a nice fish in the 600 lb range rise from the depths and follow the stinger. (a standard metal head jet). As I watched this female swim calmly and follow this straight running lure....we were thoroughly disappointed when she pulled her pecs in and floated a right turn to the crystal blue depths. Hmmmm, why not pull something back in that position that swims side to side dives,smokes,pops...something more like a frolicking baitfish than a piece of plastic foul hooked on one of the long riggers. Last year I gave a few lures out, comped them to some good guys. I told them, "run em in the stinger, they have room to swim side to side , dive down deep in nice crystal clean water". "Naw...the stinger is the junk position". A week later this Capt. emailed me and said they had a nice fish..about 700....come up and take the stinger. Fish went crazy and broke off....go figure.

Circle hooks...I love them. I think they are incredibly easy to fish and are a huge proponnent to fish preservation. I haven't tried them in my lures yet.....but I will.

Thanks for your words Capt. Fred, I am living those struggles everyday. But, when one of my clients finally get it, and listens, and catches fish....the reward is unmeasurable. Fishing is a treasure hunt.....with a mystical side that will always be there. Kind of like an electric guitar. Pull two production Les Pauls out of the assembly line and they will both play different,sound different, and age different. They are not all jewels....but every once in awhile something truly spectacular is created. This is the fuel to passionate lure making.We are only in the Genesis of understanding how and what these beautiful fish react and respond to.

Thanks for letting me ramble....hopefully I made some sense.

[Capt Lindsay]

This is a great thread.

We have learned more from visual and odor observations than any electronics could tell us. After the years on the water, visual observations give lots of hints as to what is going on in the area whether it be bait balling, jumping, schooling up or rips and current intersections clearly visible on the surface. Bird action can be spotted on radar but good vision works to about 3 miles or so. Nothing was more apparent until after I had two cataracts removed last year and the long familiar world reappeared at 20/20.

Tackle and methods also come in for serious review as new ideas come forth. Years ago we all used wire leaders on natural bait rigs. The wire makes sure you don't get bit off but the kinks and breaks likely lost more fish than bite-offs in the NorthEast. Moving to mono leaders was a boon to everyone since many people had trouble twisting wire properly.

Back in the 70s when we started fishing offshore, we used ballyhoo on wire leaders and jets and rubber squids on mono leaders. We caught more White Marlin than Yellowfins in those years. Most trips, we fished between the 20 and 40 fathom lines and never had to go all the way to the "deep." We used 12# to 30# tackle since Yellowfins were the exception retaher than routine. Later in the 70s when the tuna showed up big time, everyone moved to 50s since lighter tackle wasted too much time.

We were told by charter guys at Oregon Inlet, NC that the secret to Marlin fishing was to find the location that was holding bait or had other obvious attributes and work the area hard. Once we found the area, it was not necessary to troll fast. We find that is still the case for solid everyday fishing.

We found that mixing jets with ballyhoo didn't work that well since we had to run the boat at a slow speed for the natural baits to work properly and to have no wake. We had a 20' Mako at the time. 3.4 knots was the best speed for White Marlin. We could suck those fish in literally to 5' behind the outboard.

Jets did not like that slow a speed so we had to learn to fish naturals at slow speeds for a while and then change off to artificials and speed up. Our present rig, a 41' Ricky Scarborough Express, is the first boat we have owned that catches best at the same speed, 6.5 knots, for naturals and artificials.

When Green Machines came along, we tried them. We tried Clones, Zukers, and lots of others too. We tried Billy Baits in the 90s and found that tiny little Billy Baits or Hatteras Eyecatcher Lures in front of ballys could outcatch other rigs on certain days when catching was harder than fishing.

Time on the water has told us that when your day's starting spread isn't working, start replacing one or two baits at a time until you start catching. Then you need to have enough of the same baits to be able to put a majority of what you have out a copy or a close cousin to what caught. Keep a jigging rod handy since tuna are never alone.

Spreader bars have been the best development over the last 10 years. Whether the fish hooks up on the bar or not isn't important. The bars raise more fish so we carry many bars made up of various sizes and colors of baits. Every one we carry has caught fish on various days when the bar bait colors and the sky colors work together.

Anyone who refuses to try new ideas and methods will be passed by many others who are willing to learn. Part of the human mentality of successful people is their ability to adjust.

[SLAYER25]

This is a great thread.

We have learned more from visual and odor observations than any electronics could tell us. After the years on the water, visual observations give lots of hints as to what is going on in the area whether it be bait balling, jumping, schooling up or rips and current intersections clearly visible on the surface. Bird action can be spotted on radar but good vision works to about 3 miles or so. Nothing was more apparent until after I had two cataracts removed last year and the long familiar world reappeared at 20/20.

Tackle and methods also come in for serious review as new ideas come forth. Years ago we all used wire leaders on natural bait rigs. The wire makes sure you don't get bit off but the kinks and breaks likely lost more fish than bite-offs in the NorthEast. Moving to mono leaders was a boon to everyone since many people had trouble twisting wire properly.

Back in the 70s when we started fishing offshore, we used ballyhoo on wire leaders and jets and rubber squids on mono leaders. We caught more White Marlin than Yellowfins in those years. Most trips, we fished between the 20 and 40 fathom lines and never had to go all the way to the "deep." We used 12# to 30# tackle since Yellowfins were the exception retaher than routine. Later in the 70s when the tuna showed up big time, everyone moved to 50s since lighter tackle wasted too much time.

We were told by charter guys at Oregon Inlet, NC that the secret to Marlin fishing was to find the location that was holding bait or had other obvious attributes and work the area hard. Once we found the area, it was not necessary to troll fast. We find that is still the case for solid everyday fishing.

We found that mixing jets with ballyhoo didn't work that well since we had to run the boat at a slow speed for the natural baits to work properly and to have no wake. We had a 20' Mako at the time. 3.4 knots was the best speed for White Marlin. We could suck those fish in literally to 5' behind the outboard.

Jets did not like that slow a speed so we had to learn to fish naturals at slow speeds for a while and then change off to artificials and speed up. Our present rig, a 41' Ricky Scarborough Express, is the first boat we have owned that catches best at the same speed, 6.5 knots, for naturals and artificials.

When Green Machines came along, we tried them. We tried Clones, Zukers, and lots of others too. We tried Billy Baits in the 90s and found that tiny little Billy Baits or Hatteras Eyecatcher Lures in front of ballys could outcatch other rigs on certain days when catching was harder than fishing.

Time on the water has told us that when your day's starting spread isn't working, start replacing one or two baits at a time until you start catching. Then you need to have enough of the same baits to be able to put a majority of what you have out a copy or a close cousin to what caught. Keep a jigging rod handy since tuna are never alone.

Spreader bars have been the best development over the last 10 years. Whether the fish hooks up on the bar or not isn't important. The bars raise more fish so we carry many bars made up of various sizes and colors of baits. Every one we carry has caught fish on various days when the bar bait colors and the sky colors work together.

Anyone who refuses to try new ideas and methods will be passed by many others who are willing to learn. Part of the human mentality of successful people is their ability to adjust.

Capt Lindsey,
Great post, and i agree 100 % with the stuff you you said here, its all about learing every time you get out there and trying new stuff. It funny watching all these old timers out there trollign the same stuff they did 40 years ago and there not catching, but they wont change it up and experience something new, because 40 years ago they used to kill fish. 1 there were a ton more fish then and 2 there wasent a 10th of the fisherman there are today. I am a new school kid who takes big risks in off shore fishing trying stuff that most wont do and fishing spots where no one will. And that is why i think we have had so much luck in the tournaments we fish.
Team MJ'S

[gulfstream2gulfcoast]

With 6 or 7 baits in the spread, there's room for trying the new stuff while keeping some of your favorites out there. Trying different lures in different positions has led to revelations (more like duh of course it runs better there) that in turn raise fish.... My two cents

[Captain Fred Archer]

Some very good stuff from some very good, open minded, thinking anglers. "Different" scares the hell out of and maybe even pisses off some folks, but it's a good thing that there are guys out there pushing the envelope and developing new twists to our game, or even bringing back ones from long ago; otherwise, where would any of the new lures, techniques, forms of rigging, etc. come from?

I for one have really enjoyed reading this thread. Thank you, gentlemen...keep up the good work.

Website www.FredArchersWorldofFishing.com

[Glueman]

I admit, I get stars in my eyes when I see new lures, rod, boats and such. I will give anything a try once or twice, or 2 dozen times, and have built a pretty good knowledge a how to find and catch fish. Still look forward to learning tricks and technique every time I go out! Hell, I will be the first to walk up to some and say "what are you using" BUT, and Iam sure alot of folks agree, When all else fails using the latest fad or idea my Grandfathers tried and true methods seem to pay off!!! Something to be said for tradition. IT WORKS!

As for Old versus New? my answer= You can still teach an old dog new tricks!