Tournament fishing--- What levels to enter

[Glenn W]

This is a constant dilemma, discussion, and point of aggravation for most of the tournaments I fish in and has been a topic of alot of interest this year with other boats lining up crews.
First, there are a few basic laws (facts) of billfish tournament that cannot be changed:
(1) it is a rich man's sport;
(2) Many of us idiots refuse to admit law (1) and continue on with the other rules;
(3) Tournament fishing is a poor excuse for gambling--- you'd have better odds playing Blackjack so drunk you can't see your cards, let alone being able to count;
(4) Law (3) is for dweebs---- real men have nads not silly laws.

Now that the laws of physics are out of the way, let's talk about deciding what levels to enter---- specifically I'm referring to a group where some want to (or can only) enter only the base entry while others in the crew are contemplating (or wanting) to enter Calcutta’s.
Does there have to be a unanimous decision?---- Hell no
Is the person that pays for additional levels somehow disadvantaged---- hell no, in fact, the opposite is usually true.
Maybe this example will explain why you are actually better off entering an extra level yourself when your crew mates are only entered in a couple of levels:

Let's use last year's MA500 as an example (because the data is available). Suppose the boat, fuel, mate, & operating expenses are $9,000 before entry fees. The base fee is $6k for a total cost to get into the gig of $15k.
Assume there are 6 paying crew members, so this is $2,500 per man. This boat is now competing for the base prize of $500k and there are 163 boats at this level. If you win it is $83,333 per man or a payout ratio of 33.3:1.
Now, assume you want to play with the big boys and enter additional Calcuttas on your own. This is where risk and return comes in boys and girls:
The organizers make their money on the base entry fee but payout 95% of all Calcutta money. Consider that 163 boats paid $6,000 each for a chance at $500,000. These 163 boats generated $815,000 in revenue. This is a 61% payout ratio compared to the Calcutta payout ratio of 95%. It should be obvious now, but in case you rode the short bus, look at it this way:
Also consider that if you go in alone on a Calcutta, you get the entire amount.
Suppose you are considering fishing on one of two boats:
Boat A is also entering the 1k, 1.5,k, and 2.5k Calcutta so that the total cost is $20k for the boat ($3,333/man)
Boat B is only going base level but you will enter the 1k by yourself. This will cost you $3,500 ( $2,500 +1,000)

If you win on Boat A, your take is 1/6 of $500k base +$146k level1 + $218k level 2 + $344k level 3. this totals 1,200,000 or $201,500 per man. ( I know it’s not a winner take all, but the point and math is the same).

If you win on Boat B, your take is 1/6 of $500k base ($83,300) plus 100% of the level 1 prize of $146,000
for a total of $230,000

It cost about the same on either boat, but as you can see, your payout is better on Boat B than Boat A, AND the payout ratio (probability of winning per dollar of investment) is significantly better on Boat B.

The moral of the story is: if you want to go in extra levels on a boat but your crew mates do not, Don't let this slow you down one bit, your probabilities of winning are actually better if you enter a Calcutta on your own (for the same level of investment).
Therefore, just because your boat isn't going all in should not sway you from fishing that particular boat--- just enter the calcuttas you want on your own

Whew!!!! I'm brain dead now----- where's that Blackjack table?

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by Glenn W

This is a constant dilemma, discussion, and point of aggravation for most of the tournaments I fish in and has been a topic of alot of interest this year with other boats lining up crews.
First, there are a few basic laws (facts) of billfish tournament that cannot be changed:
(1) it is a rich man's sport;
(2) Many of us idiots refuse to admit law (1) and continue on with the other rules;
(3) Tournament fishing is a poor excuse for gambling--- you'd have better odds playing Blackjack so drunk you can't see your cards, let alone being able to count;
(4) Law (3) is for dweebs---- real men have nads not silly laws.

Now that the laws of physics are out of the way, let's talk about deciding what levels to enter---- specifically I'm referring to a group where some want to (or can only) enter only the base entry while others in the crew are contemplating (or wanting) to enter Calcutta’s.
Does there have to be a unanimous decision?---- Hell no
Is the person that pays for additional levels somehow disadvantaged---- hell no, in fact, the opposite is usually true.
Maybe this example will explain why you are actually better off entering an extra level yourself when your crew mates are only entered in a couple of levels:

Let's use last year's MA500 as an example (because the data is available). Suppose the boat, fuel, mate, & operating expenses are $9,000 before entry fees. The base fee is $6k for a total cost to get into the gig of $15k.
Assume there are 6 paying crew members, so this is $2,500 per man. This boat is now competing for the base prize of $500k and there are 163 boats at this level. If you win it is $83,333 per man or a payout ratio of 33.3:1.
Now, assume you want to play with the big boys and enter additional Calcuttas on your own. This is where risk and return comes in boys and girls:
The organizers make their money on the base entry fee but payout 95% of all Calcutta money. Consider that 163 boats paid $6,000 each for a chance at $500,000. These 163 boats generated $815,000 in revenue. This is a 61% payout ratio compared to the Calcutta payout ratio of 95%. It should be obvious now, but in case you rode the short bus, look at it this way:
Also consider that if you go in alone on a Calcutta, you get the entire amount.
Suppose you are considering fishing on one of two boats:
Boat A is also entering the 1k, 1.5,k, and 2.5k Calcutta so that the total cost is $20k for the boat ($3,333/man)
Boat B is only going base level but you will enter the 1k by yourself. This will cost you $3,500 ( $2,500 +1,000)

If you win on Boat A, your take is 1/6 of $500k base +$146k level1 + $218k level 2 + $344k level 3. this totals 1,200,000 or $201,500 per man. ( I know it’s not a winner take all, but the point and math is the same).

If you win on Boat B, your take is 1/6 of $500k base ($83,300) plus 100% of the level 1 prize of $146,000
for a total of $230,000

It cost about the same on either boat, but as you can see, your payout is better on Boat B than Boat A, AND the payout ratio (probability of winning per dollar of investment) is significantly better on Boat B.

The moral of the story is: if you want to go in extra levels on a boat but your crew mates do not, Don't let this slow you down one bit, your probabilities of winning are actually better if you enter a Calcutta on your own (for the same level of investment).
Therefore, just because your boat isn't going all in should not sway you from fishing that particular boat--- just enter the calcuttas you want on your own

Whew!!!! I'm brain dead now----- where's that Blackjack table?

LOL, I hear you but it's a good brain twister Brian, tks..

Just found out that the third place team in Monster Shark was the big winner of 190K, as the 1st and 2nd teams were not in those particular added entries. They do a 600, 1,200, 2,500 and 5K options. In fact the best odds the past few years has been the 2,500 as they get the fewest entries and if your a solid boat and can expect to put one fish on the board you have a good shot at a payout.

[striper101]

Originally Posted by jwalker

LOL, I hear you but it's a good brain twister Brian, tks..

Just found out that the third place team in Monster Shark was the big winner of 190K, as the 1st and 2nd teams were not in those particular added entries. They do a 600, 1,200, 2,500 and 5K options. In fact the best odds the past few years has been the 2,500 as they get the fewest entries and if your a solid boat and can expect to put one fish on the board you have a good shot at a payout.

That is so true! We've found that out in many of the tournies we particapate in. If we can't afford to get in all the calcuttas we won't do that tournament. But that's just us!

[bigfish4me]

Put your money where your mouth is, its going to cost you a few grand to play with the big boys, so pony it up and get in as many of the calcuttas as possible....i know i wouldnt want to be the guy that hangs the money fish only to watch the second or third place guy cash in 2-3 times more than me because we didnt get in on the calcuttas.

[Glenn W]

My bad guys--- sorry for the Fred Archer dissertation. Ya'll are missing the point here.
Assume you are considering joining a team that will Not be going all in---- assume that as given--- no changing this assumption.
The point of all of this is you can win just as much money (for yourself), if you (or a couple of the crew) fish this boat and enter one or two additional levels on your own, as the boat where the entire crew goes all in. Obviously, it varies somewhat from tournament to tournament, and all that is required is a little simple math before hand to figure this out. But in general, you will find my advise to be correct in major East Cost Billfish tournaments.
The real moral of the story is: don't be afraid to join a team that is only entering the base level, you can do just as well by entering one additional calcutta on your own.

[sportfishingusa]

I like you thoughts glen and it is as usual a precise valid point..

I always contemplating doing so but i also just love the tournament environments myself and if i could get a crew i would get in for just the base..


I am a firm believer in you need to start somewhere.. It happened years ago in the beach haven tournament.. The young crew (old than me) on the mjs came in with a boat load of big eyes... They didnt win a lot but they won enough to cover costs and have money for next years event.. They didnt get into the big money and no white marlin was caught.. Then the next year they did the same thing and then they started getting into the big money and continued to win..

I have never got the chance to date to fish with a good crew in the MA500 or the WMO.. I have fished the MA500 but with a not so good crew and we lost alot of opportunities..

I want to do it next year on my boat if i can sell my express and get a different boat ot trailer down there..

It is a little to rich for my blood to say the least unless i can get a 6 man crew together.. But i feel if i get 4 guys together, pay the entry fee and get into a few other catogories but not all it would allow me the chance to fish it, possibly win some money, and put some money away for the whole shabang for next year...

If i was fishing with a crew on my boat and someone wanted to get into say the 5k one and i didnt want to i would allow them to with no problem like you said!! would i expect money in return? NOPE! it is their money out of pocket.. I know if i did it and won a lot of money i would throw some towards the boat or others on the boat and such but i wouldn't expect anything from anyone!

I like your point of view a lot and i agree with you 100 percent! i am glad you brought this up and it will help many people in the same situation as most in the future!!

Once again thanks for this glenn!! AWESOME THREAD BUDDY!

[bigfish4me]

Alright glen i see your point...and if i had the cash, hell yeah i would get in on the calcuttas.Now i am curious about this....we were approached by a charter boat we have fished with before for a few open spots in the ma500 a few years ago. It was around 5 k a man...but heres the kicker and the deal breaker, the cut from any winnings was 70/30....70 being for the boat. How common is this? I figure 5k a man x 6 =30k wouldnt that cover expenses and calcuttas? Now if it was 5 a man just to get in base level and the boat was putting up the calcutta money, then i would figure on the boat keeping 100% calcutta winnings....but 70/30 seemed like the shitty end of the stick...so we passed on the offer.

[sportfishingusa]

that is a high and i mean HIGH structure big..

most boats will normally retain 20% with a charter and you pay into everything.. 5k a man is a lot of dough but it is a big tourney..

If you paid for a normal tournament boat to fish that it is

17k for all in the MA500 for everything.. entry and all levels..

Then if you pay 2500 a day for the boat to fish it that is another 7500..

You got the transfer which they shuold charge and a lay day plus dockage is about another 2k.... That including tip and everything is about 30k for everything and is correct but the split on the winnings is rediculous.. you are paying for the boat and stuff!!

You should by no means getting 30% if anything it should be flip flopped!

[BTH284]

I ride the shortbus GW. But I am with you on this.