Fishery management

[eppefour]

One thing impresses me so far. They use science to make their decisions. It is hard to find alternate sources of the science. However we have fishing log books and catch records that amount to a history of the fishery. The commercial guys have the same type of records. Maybe we need more cooperation between the two sides instead of fighting. Consolidate fishing records to make presentaions to NMFS.

[Ultralite]

The fishery management councils are dominated by commercial fishing interests and the results reflect that. Until that mix changes, we recs will always take a back seat.

[Deep C]

All that has been printed by mister Eppe is what is supposed to be, but only in theory. I got deep inside the workings during a particular debate and what is disemminated to the public is a far cry from what actually takes place in their little world. I saw one post above stating "good luck". I'm afraid thats an understatement.
Before any topic is ever brought to the public the decisions have already been made and public input is largely if not totally ignored. Logic to us and to them are two different things. Its a dirty little world they live in. It was asked that politics stay out of this thread but that is entirely what it boils down to. "Favors" or "CYA" drive the bus, not we the people.
Their former director suggested that I join a pannel. With the help of one of our members here we developed an "E" pettition nominating me for that position. Support also came from within their own ranks. That year, in direct contrvention of their own mandates to take two new people on that panel, the then director overruled and refused to change the existing one!
That particular panel deals with the species most of us target being the HMS ones. On that pannel sit three commercial interrests, four enviromentalist interests and one scientist. We as recreational end of the industry are not represented by a single member. In fact among all the sub pannels I know of only one person with recrational ties.
Disgust at the dirty workings is not limited to us on the outside. Without naming names I have had several conversations with highly placed people inside who are appalled at their own inner workings...
Right from the get go there is issues we should fear. The Magnusson Stephens Act mentioned through out was written by them for them to euserp power and is repeatedly ammended to give themselves even more power... Power with no rhyme or reason and not in our best interest. Corrupt agendas only to serve a very few special interests...
There is light at the tunnel however. You have elected congressmen and senators that can get their attention on certain issues. You'ld be surprised that at least in the case of congressmen you can actually get directly in touch with many with a little perseverence. Senators are tougher to reach but it can be done. The stumbling block that I have run ito in our particular district is that our congressmen have been changing at a blistering pace. I'd made head way with one and he had to resign in disgrace. Made progess with his follow up but wasn't reelected. Even though its across party lines though the third I now seem to have his attention. As we represent the largest segment of population affected by decisions of NMFS we SHOULD have the largest presence in those panels. That boys and girls is where we need to apply the most pressure...

[Ultralite]

All that has been printed by mister Eppe is what is supposed to be, but only in theory. I got deep inside the workings during a particular debate and what is disemminated to the public is a far cry from what actually takes place in their little world. I saw one post above stating "good luck". I'm afraid thats an understatement.
Before any topic is ever brought to the public the decisions have already been made and public input is largely if not totally ignored. Logic to us and to them are two different things. Its a dirty little world they live in. It was asked that politics stay out of this thread but that is entirely what it boils down to. "Favors" or "CYA" drive the bus, not we the people.
Their former director suggested that I join a pannel. With the help of one of our members here we developed an "E" pettition nominating me for that position. Support also came from within their own ranks. That year, in direct contrvention of their own mandates to take two new people on that panel, the then director overruled and refused to change the existing one!
That particular panel deals with the species most of us target being the HMS ones. On that pannel sit three commercial interrests, four enviromentalist interests and one scientist. We as recreational end of the industry are not represented by a single member. In fact among all the sub pannels I know of only one person with recrational ties.
Disgust at the dirty workings is not limited to us on the outside. Without naming names I have had several conversations with highly placed people inside who are appalled at their own inner workings...
Right from the get go there is issues we should fear. The Magnusson Stephens Act mentioned through out was written by them for them to euserp power and is repeatedly ammended to give themselves even more power... Power with no rhyme or reason and not in our best interest. Corrupt agendas only to serve a very few special interests...
There is light at the tunnel however. You have elected congressmen and senators that can get their attention on certain issues. You'ld be surprised that at least in the case of congressmen you can actually get directly in touch with many with a little perseverence. Senators are tougher to reach but it can be done. The stumbling block that I have run ito in our particular district is that our congressmen have been changing at a blistering pace. I'd made head way with one and he had to resign in disgrace. Made progess with his follow up but wasn't reelected. Even though its across party lines though the third I now seem to have his attention. As we represent the largest segment of population affected by decisions of NMFS we SHOULD have the largest presence in those panels. That boys and girls is where we need to apply the most pressure...

The practice of the decisions being already made before they solicit public testimony just emphasizes the fact that you need to have effective lobbying behind the scenes ahead of the meetings. They will rarely if ever cow tow to public testimony. If they did, then every meeting would turn into a public demand session. It's like letting the kids dictate the direction of the class.

That said, you're echoing exactly what I said which is that the recs have always taken a back seat on the Fishery Management Councils. Out here on the West Coast the PFMC was for the longest time chaired by the owner of a Sportfish Landing which has a fleet of Sportboats ("CPFVs"). During his tenure, we saw the one of the greatest depletion of rockfish, second only that which ocurred on the Georges Bank. Then they wonder WHY we face pending closures under the MLPA. Their boats hit the same spots day after day piling on fish to their angler limits. These are slow growing, relatively spot specific fish. It's pure meat fishing, not sportfishing. And they wonder why WE'RE facing pending closures? They ("PFMC") say that the stocks are rebounding and that is the factual truth, but we never should have reached that point to where the enviros were forced to come in with their draconian closure plans. But that's what happens when you have the fox (commercials) guarding the hen house.

[seapower]

Eppe, the problem as I saw it is directly caused by the process you speak of!!! Yes they use science to base decission's, problem is it's THEIR science. It has no basis with practicality or common sense. If their science say's that the sea is now pink, guess what it's pink. There is absolutely nothing you're gonna do to change the outcome. You're gonna get a real sore head, beating it against that wall. The process they use for public opinion is just a legality. They have to have time for public debate, yes they gotta be there, but it doesn't mean they are listening. I was at a crucial meaning several year's back and one of the distingushed panel members was asleep at the table !!!!!!!!!
UltraLite, I seriously beg the differ with you about them being beholding to the commercial fishing interest's. It all depend's on which side of the fence you are standing on! Those folk's are so anti-commercial it ain't funny. I personally was put out of the biz by them after fighting an issue I was right on! They admitted to the error but my fate was sealed. I used my Congressman and Senator with their lawyer's to fight this thing for a year and a half. The final outcome was I lost a business that I worked 17 year's to build (all reported and honest) with all the asset's to boot!!! The problem is that if I would have stooped to lying I could have kept on going. I'm sorry I will not cook the book's or lie, it's wrong any way you look at it. But it is business as usual with that crowd. It came down to politic's in the end. My Senator was Jesse Helm's and Bill Clinton was the Prez. My case finally went before the "power's that be", but because Jesse had just pissed Bill off by shooting down his choice for Ambassador to Mexico, my case was tossed out because Jesse was the one to deliver it. Had absolutely nothing to do with the merit of my case, again even "THEY" said I was in the right and encouraged me to fight on. But I learned very quickly that they have more lawyer's on retainer and can simply wait you out. It ain't fair, but it is what it is.
Point being fella's, it's this simple: If there isn't a problem "THEY" don't have a job, You can bet your sweet hind end they are gonna be sure that there is a problem. You can't fix stupid !!!!! Frank

[eppefour]

In this first post I said no political comments. That was wrong. I changed it to political bashing ie: name calling and other counter productive political ideas.

I agree with several things in the above posts. 1 by deep c:
"You have elected congressmen and senators that can get their attention on certain issues. You'ld be surprised that at least in the case of congressmen you can actually get directly in touch with many with a little perseverence. Senators are tougher to reach but it can be done. The stumbling block that I have run ito in our particular district is that our congressmen have been changing at a blistering pace. I'd made head way with one and he had to resign in disgrace. Made progess with his follow up but wasn't reelected. Even though its across party lines though the third I now seem to have his attention. As we represent the largest segment of population affected by decisions of NMFS we SHOULD have the largest presence in those panels. That boys and girls is where we need to apply the most pressure... "

by seapower
"Eppe, the problem as I saw it is directly caused by the process you speak of!!! Yes they use science to base decission's, problem is it's THEIR science. It has no basis with practicality or common sense. If their science say's that the sea is now pink, guess what it's pink. There is absolutely nothing you're gonna do to change the outcome."

"UltraLite, I seriously beg the differ with you about them being beholding to the commercial fishing interest's. It all depend's on which side of the fence you are standing on! Those folk's are so anti-commercial it ain't funny. I personally was put out of the biz by them after fighting an issue I was right on! "

I am going to continue this discussion, even if it is hopeless. I believe we all have to understand the process. Our elected representative are a good place to start. We will be discussing this more later. For now look at the post in
http://www.sportfishermen.com/board/...er-369011.html

Congresswoman Ileana Ros-Lehtinen R-Fl deliver that speech before the House of representatives. If I were in her district I would be applauding her effort and considering supporting her in congress.

One of our Admin's complaints is that these organizations don't keep us informed. They don't tell us what is going on . Lawsuits like RFA's are fine but they can take years to be settled. I am still involved in a group lawsuit that was filed in 1990 and still not settled.

There is talk of flawed science but no clear cut facts or alternative science. magnuson requires them to use available science. If the only science available if flawed, that is what they have to use.

[eppefour]

I also believe like Seapower that the commercial guys are hit hard too. That is why cooperation may be necessary. At least if I can't fish for flounder I can take my boat and a couple of friends to happy hour. The commercial guy no longer has the money to buy beer.
It's going to be a long winter, so stay tuned

[seapower]

I'm not trying to deter you in anyway. I'm just telling some of the frustation's I had over the year's. I would really love to know what it would take to understand the process. That is the key to my dissatisfaction, we don't seem to have any voice over a "public" resource that is being regulated by "public" tax dollar's. It's taxation without representation, not alway's easy to swallow. I find it extremely hard not to get negative anytime the subject comes up. To tell you the truth there just doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to the descisson's. I've known some of the key player's from back in the day that have moved right on up the "ladder", leaving a trail of destruction behind them. They asked us (commercial guy's) for information, data, platform's to do study's on, etc... Then treated us like we didn't know how to get out of the harbor by ourselve's. I made my own boat's with myself at the helm available to them many times over the year's.
I know it seem's like whining to some, but take a little time and walk the dock's. Find some boat owner's that have tried to get "involved", I think the conversation will pretty much be the same you're getting from me. I guess I'm just saying get ready for an up-hill battle, and don't wear your feeling's on your shirt sleeve. Frank

[eppefour]

I'm not trying to deter you in anyway. I'm just telling some of the frustation's I had over the year's. I would really love to know what it would take to understand the process. That is the key to my dissatisfaction, we don't seem to have any voice over a "public" resource that is being regulated by "public" tax dollar's. It's taxation without representation, not alway's easy to swallow. I find it extremely hard not to get negative anytime the subject comes up. To tell you the truth there just doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to the descisson's. I've known some of the key player's from back in the day that have moved right on up the "ladder", leaving a trail of destruction behind them. They asked us (commercial guy's) for information, data, platform's to do study's on, etc... Then treated us like we didn't know how to get out of the harbor by ourselve's. I made my own boat's with myself at the helm available to them many times over the year's.
I know it seem's like whining to some, but take a little time and walk the dock's. Find some boat owner's that have tried to get "involved", I think the conversation will pretty much be the same you're getting from me. I guess I'm just saying get ready for an up-hill battle, and don't wear your feeling's on your shirt sleeve. Frank

I don't wear my feelings on my sleeve. I am not upset by anyone's comments if they are trying to be truthful and not detructive. I appreciate your point of view and agree with most if not all of it. I realize it's an uphill battle, but right now I'm trying to get a good picture of the battlefield. I appreciate all comments. It's important to know how people feel. There is a lot of frustation in both the recreational side and the commercial side. Like I said it will be a long winter and I'm a good reader. stephen King might sell 1 or 2 less books this winter, but I'm sure he will survive.

[eppefour]

House bill 1584 http://www.sportfishermen.com/board/f17/
is one reason I didn't want outright political bashing in the thread. The co sponsors of that bill are both Republican and Democrat. we will get more support from coastal legislators than fron legislators from the plains states. they will support the farmers. We will have to count on support from both parties to get anywhere. Disagreement with policies is fine if done in a proper manner.I want to hear your failures and disapointments in the system. We can learn from our past.