Custom Paul Mann

[cheeks]

Originally Posted by marlineer

Just ask the Owner of "Dream Catcher". The boat suffered from plywood de-lam 2X. Insurance Co. surveyor said "No-Way" the second time.

I nearly fell off my chair when I saw those construction photos.

Almost unbelievable.

[Fortunate One]

Originally Posted by cheeks

That is the worst construction I have ever seen.


You CANNOT cover a plank on frame boat with plywood. You can do it on a strip boat but not carvel. As those planks shrink and swell they will delaminate from the plywood.


That is a really, really bad idea.

Sure, what a piece of junk. You couldn't give me that boat or that 81'er Probably fall apart on launch day. That 61'er on Yacht World is probably another piece of garbage

That 71 is one nice looking vessel. Hell that 61 on Yacht World is beautiful also.

I don't know Cheeks, How many boats have you built? Apparently they have a following large enough to keep busy. According to the web site he's presently building a 71, a couple of 66's and an 81. I'd think that the people laying down some serious coin for those boats know exactly what they want and I'm also suer they selected Paul Mann to build those boats for a reason.

Hasn't he produced many boats the same way for years?

[Glenn W]

Cheeks, your statements are pretty bold considering we do not know your qualifications and experience.
I'm not lamblasting you but Paul Mann Boats have a pretty good history are are the choice of several top charter Captains (Pelican, Hunter, etc). So, for a no-name internet poster to make statements such as---"That is the worst construction I have ever seen" and 'I nearly fell off my chair when I saw those construction photos" against a very reputable boat builder---- well, I hope you understand my point.
Perhaps you can enlighten us with your naval Architecture and/or boat building qualifications?--- Seriously. Then your credibility can be examined against another established boat builder.
I say all this not because I have any allegence to Paul Mann, but rather because I am interested in modern wood core boat construction. So I am most interested in undertanding why this techniue is so poor in your opinion.
It would seem to me that if a delamination potential is there between planks and plywood, the same potential is there for any wood/epoxy lamination technique, but I know virtually nothing about this art. I also don't understand this shrink and swell as the planking and frame is glassed and barrier coated from the inside and out, thus inhibiting any water intrusion and eliminating most shrinking and swelling of the juniper planks.--- Perhaps your opinion is that such a process is not good enough to seal water out?
Eagerly wanting to learn more---

[Huntersun]

Interesting observation Cheeks, care to elaborated.

[fishskipper]

I personally think that Paul Mann is one of the better builders in Carolina and has been a pioneer in the evolution of boat building. He's been building since 1988 so he definitely knows what he's doing. He learned from some of the best like Ommie Tillet and Sonny Briggs.... and as far as I know the Dream Catcher's problem was from hitting something. It would be pretty hard for me to believe it was from delamination!
Its really easy to criticize, but I can tell you he is not the only one to use this process.. There are all kinds of ways to build a boat. Some may be better than others, but I would put these rigs to the top of the better list.
Now back to the original thread. Those rigs are awesome, but I wonder where they are gonna tie up? They're not gonna fit in my marina!
!

[TunaTeaser1]

I will be interested in this response as well. I've always liked those boats and his operation over in Manns Harbor is certainly not anything to be ashamed of...To be staying busy in times like these shows he's doing something right in my opinion. Ron, if that is the new Ann Warwick I don't know where he's planning on keeping that thing either!

[marlineer]

Dream Catcher hit nothing...either time! I saw the damage. She would have sunk the first time under a lesser Capt. I will not elaborate here, but one of those PM's that is for sale is the result of a canceled order for whatever reason. I do agree however, Paul Mann Custom Boats do have a following and They do raise fish. Dream Catcher and Phat Mann proved that!

[hubris 1]

i think they are beautiful boat's. i think it's unfair to call them names. they build some beautiful boat's down there. that said, a friend of mine with a jarrett bay, has water in his hull, how did it get there? how do you fix it? the boat is beautiful........but i lost sleep last night thinking about his boat. [i was alone] its like any construction, it has flaw's, weakness, but its also beautiful. i dont think just because guy's buy them it makes them right. i mean, even a clock that doesn't work, tell's the right time, two times a day. but, im sure they work to make it right.........and that's the burden of buying a custom boat. you are it's caretaker.........take care of it. at least that's the way i see it. ive been on dream catcher, it was beautiful.......im sorry to see it like this. hope they fix it, and fish it........and by the way, paul mann's wife is cute, im gonna look for her in north carolina. gonna tell her i played at DUKE!

[cheeks]

Originally Posted by Huntersun

Interesting observation Cheeks, care to elaborated.

Sure.


Without getting into a long winded discription of plank on frame and cold molded construction I will get to the heart of the problem that you see in these photos. I will be glad to elaborate in exacting detail later on if you wish.

Wood shrinks and swells radially, tangential to the grain. Wood does not shrink along the length of the grain.(It actually does slightly but not enough to matter in most situations.) Thus if you leave a 8 foot long board outside in the weather it will still be 8 feet long regardless of chages in moisture content. However it will cup, bow and twist like crazy. All wood will shrink and swell with changes in moisture content. The amount it shrinks and swells is reffered to as dimensional stability. Plywood is a modern material that over comes this by using thin veeners a right angles to one another so that the wood shrinks and swells in differrent directions counter balancing itself. Thus plywood is dimensionally stable.

So here is the problem. When you attach a dimensionally unstable wood(in this case Juniper planks) to plywood with a nonflexible adhesive such as epoxy they are going to destroy each other. Resulting in delamination.

I'm too tired to gone further tonight. If you want a primer on wooden and cold molded construction try these two books:

The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction
How to build a Wooden Boat by Bud Macintosh

[Glenn W]

Originally Posted by cheeks

Sure.


Without getting into a long winded discription of plank on frame and cold molded construction I will get to the heart of the problem that you see in these photos. I will be glad to elaborate in exacting detail later on if you wish.

Wood shrinks and swells radially, tangential to the grain. Wood does not shrink along the length of the grain.(It actually does slightly but not enough to matter in most situations.) Thus if you leave a 8 foot long board outside in the weather it will still be 8 feet long regardless of chages in moisture content. However it will cup, bow and twist like crazy. All wood will shrink and swell with changes in moisture content. The amount it shrinks and swells is reffered to as dimensional stability. Plywood is a modern material that over comes this by using thin veeners a right angles to one another so that the wood shrinks and swells in differrent directions counter balancing itself. Thus plywood is dimensionally stable.

So here is the problem. When you attach a dimensionally unstable wood(in this case Juniper planks) to plywood with a nonflexible adhesive such as epoxy they are going to destroy each other. Resulting in delamination.

I'm too tired to gone further tonight. If you want a primer on wooden and cold molded construction try these two books:

The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction
How to build a Wooden Boat by Bud Macintosh

Thanks for the input on this. Your explaination would appear to make logical sense for an all wood boat, but I still don't understand the logic in glassed over boats using this plywood over plank techniue--- especially when the inside is also glassed and sealed.
I guess I'm having the hardest time with your strong critique as this being "the worst you have ever seen" when several established boat builders use this same method of plywood over plank--- not the least of which is Ricky Scarborough.?
Please continue.
Thanks