Cummins lawsuit?

marlineer · 04-22-2009, 08:10 PM

Can anyone tell Me more about this Cummins class action lawsuit? Does anyone have any of the motors affected by the flaw which causes loss of power and decrease in engine life? I believe most of the trouble is with the 6B or 6C series and includes all QSM-11 models and has to do with the raw-water cooling system.

Deep C · 04-22-2009, 09:52 PM

I havn't heard about this one... Heard about the cat one that gets posted here on a regular basis... The 6b/c series are a far cry and completely different animals from the qsm11 series... Don't see that they would have remotely similar parts to be having similar issues?

retriever · 04-22-2009, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marlineer

Can anyone tell Me more about this Cummins class action lawsuit? Does anyone have any of the motors affected by the flaw which causes loss of power and decrease in engine life? I believe most of the trouble is with the 6B or 6C series and includes all QSM-11 models and has to do with the raw-water cooling system.

We have a pair of the 450 c engines that are part of the class action lawsuit. The guy trying to take Cummins to court claims that when water created in a seawater aftercooler enters the power cylinders of the engine it causes premature wearout of the power cylinders. Cummins obviously disagrees.

marlineer · 04-23-2009, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deep C

I havn't heard about this one... Heard about the cat one that gets posted here on a regular basis... The 6b/c series are a far cry and completely different animals from the qsm11 series... Don't see that they would have remotely similar parts to be having similar issues?

I just recieved a letter from WillWe,F'em and How this AM saying I am part of this class action suit as a Dealer Who sold several of these motors! I will opt out. Apparently They are using the same seawater system on the Q's. Yes They are completly different but still share some of the same components. The letter is vague and as Retriever stated, Cummins disagrees. Is this just One Guy (isolated problem) or are there more of these problems?

go boater · 04-23-2009, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marlineer

I just recieved a letter from WillWe,F'em and How this AM saying I am part of this class action suit as a Dealer Who sold several of these motors! I will opt out. Apparently They are using the same seawater system on the Q's. Yes They are completly different but still share some of the same components. The letter is vague and as Retriever stated, Cummins disagrees. Is this just One Guy (isolated problem) or are there more of these problems?

2/3 of the way through the new power and motoryacht... THERE IT IS... The hook to pull cummins' owners in for the suit.

seapower · 04-23-2009, 10:39 PM

I'd be curious to know what's really going on. Are they talking about the "condensation" that form's in the aftercooler. Again I haven't heard anything about this lawsuit, but condensation does form. We aren't talking about vast amount's of water here, and it's pretty clean water at that. It's not exposed to any outside influences that would cause contamination. Is any water good inside of the cylinder's, well no, but this such a small amount. Don't think the engine's would run for 10,000 hr's if this was a problem.
This issue was not as common back when aftercooler's were fresh water cooled (jacket water cooled). As the air is compressed in the inlet side of the trurbocharger, it is routed through the aftercooler (which in this case is raw water cooled), for the purpose to cool it back down before going into the cylinder's, on the intake stroke. The reason it is cooled back down is so that the oxygen molecules will become more condensed (packed tighter). The action of having the O2 molecules condensed gives you a more violent explosion in the cylinder's. More horse power equal's nothing more than a bigger fire (a contolled bigger fire) in the hole. The advantage of raw water cooled aftercooling is you get a much lower intake air temperature than you used to get with jacket water aftercooler's. Again with a lower intake air temp at the intake stroke the more violent the explosion, that equal's more horsepower. With the temperature drop across the aftercooler, some condensation will form. In the case of these raw water cooled after cooler's, the aftercooler is a tube bundle inside of an aluminum housing, that is sealed on both end's. The raw water passes through the inside of the tube's, the heated air passes around the outside of the tube's, transferring the heat. Work's much like a radiator, but raw water is your cooling medium. Last I knew when you mix hot and cold air, doesn't condensation form naturally??? We are not about lot's of water here, trace amount's. That is why you service and clean your after cooler's to remove any sludge that form's over time. If there was a break in the system and the engine's were injesting raw water that would be another story. To my knowledge that is not the case. Frank,SeaPower

I'd rather be gulfing · 10-20-2009, 12:43 PM

I heard about this recently and was lookin for more information...stumbled upon this old thread. Has anyone looked into this more?

I was told the aftercooler produces condensation in the engine and has been causing problems. I haven't had any problems yet (I've got a 6C) but I called my dealer about it and they said Cummins will fix the engine now for free or pay for repairs for those who already had a problem. They referred me to the law suit website which is a little confusing but making a claim seems pretty easy. I was thinking about going ahead and protecting the engine before anything happens, but I figured I'd see if anyone had dealt with this yet. Has anyone had a problem or filed for a replacement? If so, how'd it go?

Bluewater Lady Charters · 10-23-2009, 10:11 PM

In the case of these raw water cooled after cooler's, the aftercooler is a tube bundle inside of an aluminum housing, that is sealed on both end's. The raw water passes through the inside of the tube's, the heated air passes around the outside of the tube's, transferring the heat.

Sorry don't know how to do the quote thing.

Is it possible, assuming the bundle is brass that there is a different expansion rate that causes some how to leak water in to the air chamber or can the bundle be weak in design and leak after time. Are there enough pencil zincs?
I am thinking of repowering my rig with Cummins remans or rebuilding my 6v92's next year. Not too familiar with the inner workings of Cummins. Cost and reliability would be a big factor in a charter boat.

I have another question about weight distribution when repowering my rig. Which I will ask in another post.

Storm · 10-24-2009, 12:41 PM

This sounds very similar to the issues with the Caterpillar 3196 and C12 aftercoolers. Cold water rushing into the hot aftercooler core causes the core to condensate. The condensation forms rust inside the cooler housing. Eventually, the rust makes its way through the cylinders to the oil pan - abrading the cylinder liners along the way.

This is why I still take exception to Cat's claims that it resolved the aftercooler problem. Changes to the aftercooler core and mounting hardware do nothing to resolve the condensation issue. Cat attempted to resolve the condensation issue on some aftercoolers by rerouting the raw water/cooling water through the heat exchanger. This has the effect of heating the raw water somewhat before it enters the aftercooler core - thereby reducing aftercooler condensate.

In my opinion, Caterpillar hasn't been upfront in regards to warning customers about the potential condensation issue and informing customers of the process to correct it - which might invariably save customers considerable money for an unnecessary premature engine overhaul.

Storm

seapower · 10-25-2009, 10:38 AM

Take a few minute's to read the post I put up on this issue. This isn't salt water injestion into the cylinders, it's condensation. Thewhole world want's cleaner, more fuel efficent engine's. You have to cool the inlet air after the turbo charger. The most efficent way to do this on a marine engine is with raw water. Hot air (with high humidity from the marine environment aswell) runs across the "cold" tube bunble and get's chilled very fast. This equal's condensation,no way around it. There is now an aftercooler housing available with a drain at the bottom for the condesation to drain. Still when it's all said and done, I have several commercial boat's that I deal with that have over 10,000 hour's (and still going strong) on these "lemon's". In my opinion, this is just another case of a guy that keep's a lawyer on retainer.
Storm, in your case, I'd be willing to bet that with your oil analysis you see high "salinity" level's. That comes from raw water injestion from a compromised after cooler, as you already know. You're beating a dead horse here. I know and understand your problem with Cat here. Ther boat I just carried to Florida got 2 brand new engines after rebuilding the old ones at 300 hour's. I can't give all the detail's on this site, but let's just say that Cat made him an offer "he couldn't refuse". Two new C-12's that haven't given him a moment's trouble and no sign of "high salinity" level's in his oil. Still not my favorite engine, but way better than what he had. But I must say that Cat stepped up to the plate and did the right thing. He got the result's that he needed, but did thing's in a different avenue that you are. Again I agree that you have a legitiment gripe here, but your going about this in the wrong way IMO. Frank

04-23-2009, 10:39 PM	#6
seapower I think Admin is going to let me have this space Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Bath,NC Posts: 1,450 Credits: 4,826.0 Boat: 25' DownEaster Home Port: Bath, NC Best Catch: My wife Occupation: marine diesel service owner	I haven't heard of this C/A Lawsuit myself, I'd be curious to know what's really going on. Are they talking about the "condensation" that form's in the aftercooler. Again I haven't heard anything about this lawsuit, but condensation does form. We aren't talking about vast amount's of water here, and it's pretty clean water at that. It's not exposed to any outside influences that would cause contamination. Is any water good inside of the cylinder's, well no, but this such a small amount. Don't think the engine's would run for 10,000 hr's if this was a problem. This issue was not as common back when aftercooler's were fresh water cooled (jacket water cooled). As the air is compressed in the inlet side of the trurbocharger, it is routed through the aftercooler (which in this case is raw water cooled), for the purpose to cool it back down before going into the cylinder's, on the intake stroke. The reason it is cooled back down is so that the oxygen molecules will become more condensed (packed tighter). The action of having the O2 molecules condensed gives you a more violent explosion in the cylinder's. More horse power equal's nothing more than a bigger fire (a contolled bigger fire) in the hole. The advantage of raw water cooled aftercooling is you get a much lower intake air temperature than you used to get with jacket water aftercooler's. Again with a lower intake air temp at the intake stroke the more violent the explosion, that equal's more horsepower. With the temperature drop across the aftercooler, some condensation will form. In the case of these raw water cooled after cooler's, the aftercooler is a tube bundle inside of an aluminum housing, that is sealed on both end's. The raw water passes through the inside of the tube's, the heated air passes around the outside of the tube's, transferring the heat. Work's much like a radiator, but raw water is your cooling medium. Last I knew when you mix hot and cold air, doesn't condensation form naturally??? We are not about lot's of water here, trace amount's. That is why you service and clean your after cooler's to remove any sludge that form's over time. If there was a break in the system and the engine's were injesting raw water that would be another story. To my knowledge that is not the case. Frank,SeaPower

10-24-2009, 12:41 PM	#9
Storm Anthony's Ark is a blowboater Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cape Elizabeth, Maine Posts: 285 Credits: 2,197.1	This sounds very similar to the issues with the Caterpillar 3196 and C12 aftercoolers. Cold water rushing into the hot aftercooler core causes the core to condensate. The condensation forms rust inside the cooler housing. Eventually, the rust makes its way through the cylinders to the oil pan - abrading the cylinder liners along the way. This is why I still take exception to Cat's claims that it resolved the aftercooler problem. Changes to the aftercooler core and mounting hardware do nothing to resolve the condensation issue. Cat attempted to resolve the condensation issue on some aftercoolers by rerouting the raw water/cooling water through the heat exchanger. This has the effect of heating the raw water somewhat before it enters the aftercooler core - thereby reducing aftercooler condensate. In my opinion, Caterpillar hasn't been upfront in regards to warning customers about the potential condensation issue and informing customers of the process to correct it - which might invariably save customers considerable money for an unnecessary premature engine overhaul. Storm Last edited by Storm; 10-24-2009 at 12:46 PM.

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04-22-2009, 09:52 PM	#2
Deep C Master of all things wet Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Plywood State Posts: 13,716 Credits: 43,413.4 Boat: Several Home Port: Palm Beach Best Catch: Mrs Deep Occupation: Killin Stuff	I havn't heard about this one... Heard about the cat one that gets posted here on a regular basis... The 6b/c series are a far cry and completely different animals from the qsm11 series... Don't see that they would have remotely similar parts to be having similar issues?

10-20-2009, 12:43 PM	#7
I'd rather be gulfing #1 Lurker Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 3 Credits: 49.0	I heard about this recently and was lookin for more information...stumbled upon this old thread. Has anyone looked into this more? I was told the aftercooler produces condensation in the engine and has been causing problems. I haven't had any problems yet (I've got a 6C) but I called my dealer about it and they said Cummins will fix the engine now for free or pay for repairs for those who already had a problem. They referred me to the law suit website which is a little confusing but making a claim seems pretty easy. I was thinking about going ahead and protecting the engine before anything happens, but I figured I'd see if anyone had dealt with this yet. Has anyone had a problem or filed for a replacement? If so, how'd it go?

10-25-2009, 10:38 AM	#10
seapower I think Admin is going to let me have this space Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Bath,NC Posts: 1,450 Credits: 4,826.0 Boat: 25' DownEaster Home Port: Bath, NC Best Catch: My wife Occupation: marine diesel service owner	Take a few minute's to read the post I put up on this issue. This isn't salt water injestion into the cylinders, it's condensation. Thewhole world want's cleaner, more fuel efficent engine's. You have to cool the inlet air after the turbo charger. The most efficent way to do this on a marine engine is with raw water. Hot air (with high humidity from the marine environment aswell) runs across the "cold" tube bunble and get's chilled very fast. This equal's condensation,no way around it. There is now an aftercooler housing available with a drain at the bottom for the condesation to drain. Still when it's all said and done, I have several commercial boat's that I deal with that have over 10,000 hour's (and still going strong) on these "lemon's". In my opinion, this is just another case of a guy that keep's a lawyer on retainer. Storm, in your case, I'd be willing to bet that with your oil analysis you see high "salinity" level's. That comes from raw water injestion from a compromised after cooler, as you already know. You're beating a dead horse here. I know and understand your problem with Cat here. Ther boat I just carried to Florida got 2 brand new engines after rebuilding the old ones at 300 hour's. I can't give all the detail's on this site, but let's just say that Cat made him an offer "he couldn't refuse". Two new C-12's that haven't given him a moment's trouble and no sign of "high salinity" level's in his oil. Still not my favorite engine, but way better than what he had. But I must say that Cat stepped up to the plate and did the right thing. He got the result's that he needed, but did thing's in a different avenue that you are. Again I agree that you have a legitiment gripe here, but your going about this in the wrong way IMO. Frank