Cummins lawsuit? - Page 2

Banshee · 10-25-2009, 12:10 PM

I saw this lawsuit as well as the fix that Cummins is providing. Basically a poppet valve on the bottom of the after cooler that opens up and lets out the condensate. Looks to me that will be a problem down the road. I personally think the guy who started the lawsuit did his own aftercooler maintence and did not buy the gold plated cummins o-rings to seal the after coolers. The wrong o ring failed and he ingested salt water then cried foul. But what do I know. That just my best guess. If you service your aftercoolers correctly you should not have a problem. I have seen the amonut of condensate in my oen Cummins aftercooler and it was maybe a tablespoon of water in the bottom.
For those of you who want to know more check out Tony Athens aftercooler maintence page on Boat Diesel. com or google his home page Seaborad Marine. it will be eye opening for sure.
JW

seapower · 10-25-2009, 03:10 PM

Not trying to be a wise guy here. But for those wanting to know more about the proper maintainence of their after cooler's, they should be contacting their local dealer instead of some inter-net guru, who doesn't have a dog in the fight. I'm not bad mouthing an inter-net site (although it may sound like it, I don't read them either), but they cannot see what a good tech who is on the boat can. Some of the best long term money spent is with a good local tech, who deserve's and appreciate's your business. I have had quite a few owner's who have gotten just enough info from the "talking head's" to get themselve's in a situation they can't get themselve's out of. With most cases they went in way, way, too deep. Causing themselve's more money and trouble than was nessesary. Some info is good for some, with other's it can be down right dangerous (and expensive). Frank

Banshee · 10-25-2009, 05:25 PM

Seapower , I do agree with you on the internet guru, they are not for some people especially those who do not know how to turn a wrench. I can turn a wrench and know when to call the local shop. I was merely stating after cooler maintence is not rocket science on the Cummins 450c 330b engines.

as far as tony being the inter guru, I like the fact you can get him on the phone and he has designed replacement parts for the cummins, ie raw water pumps, impellers, turbo airfilters, and fuel filter systems. I like hios stuff, better than OPEM. But I'll let others decide.
JW

Storm · 10-25-2009, 06:23 PM

Caterpillar stepped up to the plate and replaced two C12's at 300 hours. That's mighty big of them considering the engines were already approaching their second oil change interval and should still have been under warranty. This is just another fine example of Caterpillar's quality products. One would think after eighty years in business the company could build a dependable engine. How many trouble free hours do the replacement C12's have, fifty? As for salinity levels, high sodium has never been a good indicator of aftercooler trouble in these engines. High iron is a better indicator and is typically indicative of a condensation issue as opposed to a raw water ingestion issue.

I'd like to know what the right way to go about getting a replacement engine from Caterpillar is. During the past ten years I've sat down and discussed my engine problems with the local service department manager, made dozens of telephone calls up and down the corporate chain of command, made dozens of emails up and down the corporate chain.

Despite the fact that my latest engine breakdown was a direct result of a failed/defective aftercooler, Caterpillar wouldn't even agree to pay for repairs without the threat of a lawsuit. And then their asshole lawyer only offered to pay a small percentage of the repair bill.

Far be it from me to know how to deal with these assholes. Just waiting for the day when I can afford to buy a John Deere. I'm tired of dealing with Caterpillar's dog and pony show customer service. Cat reps have the dog and pony show so well rehearsed they could perform at Barnum and Bailey's - where a new sucker is born every minute.

Storm

Fortunate One · 10-25-2009, 07:00 PM

The only people to make out in a class action suit are lawyers, so my advice is to give it up. If cummins isn't willing to correct the problem and it's your motor having problems then don't purchase another cummins engine.

I can't believe the abuse Cat owners have endured over the years but that's another story.

If a problem has been identified and a manufacturer hasn't step right up to fix it then pass the word and the rest of us will quit purchasing this junk.

Let them go the way of the auto industry. Quit being so brand loyal. If the motors are good then the reputation will carry the business.

Once they turn their backs on a problem then we should stick a fork in them.

seapower · 10-25-2009, 07:04 PM

Won't argue the point of failure with you. As for his engine's, salt injestion was the problem, well the main problem anyway (there were other thing's aswell). By the way the guy that had the engine's replaced is a lawyer himself, speak's for itself. Frank

Storm · 10-25-2009, 09:02 PM

Well there you have it.

I just recently (several weeks ago) responded to an individuals question as to whether or not Cat would repair or replace the 3196 engines in the 50' Sea Ray he was considering purchasing.

This is what I said:

"If you are an individual of some influence, for example a U.S. Senator, a federal circuit court judge, or a prominent lawyer - there's a chance that Caterpillar might incur the cost to repair or replace your defective 3196/C12 engine. I understand this has been the case for certain privileged individuals. If you're a common, working-class individual like me, be prepared for Caterpillar's infamous dog and pony show."

Storm

Storm · 10-25-2009, 09:47 PM

This just in from a Wall Street Journal press release:

According to Caterpillar Group President Stu Levenick, "For more than 80 years, Caterpillar and its global dealer network have worked side by side to provide our customers with unmatched products and service support."

That's a bold statement for a company that produces an engine with an eighty to ninety percent aftercooler failure rate and its customer support amounts to a dog and pony show.

Good thing its products and service support are unmatched. There's still hope that other manufacturers produce quality products and provide real customer support.

Storm

I'd rather be gulfing · 10-26-2009, 02:25 PM

but , Fortunate One, Cummins is now forced to fix the problem if you make a claim. why wait until the engine fails and change brands when you can get the aftercooler problem fixed now for free? who cares about the lawyers - i just want my engine to keep working. period. so why not do the free retrofit?

Fortunate One · 10-26-2009, 03:31 PM

I'd rather be gulfing, in a class action lawsuit they may be able to get away with offering some type of settlement other than correcting the problem.

Their argument will be that the product was placed into use and therefore they should only be on the hook for a pro-rated repair.

If there is a method to correct the problem without voiding the warranty then the smart thing to do is to correct it. Otherwise a damaged motor is not going to do you any good and if Cummins settles somewhere along the line and who knows when that will be, you could lose the use of the boat for an extended period of time while you wait. Or even worse severely damage the engine with no recourse if they are not found liable to correct the problem.

10-25-2009, 03:10 PM	#12
seapower I think Admin is going to let me have this space Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Bath,NC Posts: 1,448 Credits: 4,821.8 Boat: 25' DownEaster Home Port: Bath, NC Best Catch: My wife Occupation: marine diesel service owner	Banshee, Not trying to be a wise guy here. But for those wanting to know more about the proper maintainence of their after cooler's, they should be contacting their local dealer instead of some inter-net guru, who doesn't have a dog in the fight. I'm not bad mouthing an inter-net site (although it may sound like it, I don't read them either), but they cannot see what a good tech who is on the boat can. Some of the best long term money spent is with a good local tech, who deserve's and appreciate's your business. I have had quite a few owner's who have gotten just enough info from the "talking head's" to get themselve's in a situation they can't get themselve's out of. With most cases they went in way, way, too deep. Causing themselve's more money and trouble than was nessesary. Some info is good for some, with other's it can be down right dangerous (and expensive). Frank

10-25-2009, 06:23 PM	#14
Storm Anthony's Ark is a blowboater Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cape Elizabeth, Maine Posts: 285 Credits: 2,197.0	Caterpillar stepped up to the plate and replaced two C12's at 300 hours. That's mighty big of them considering the engines were already approaching their second oil change interval and should still have been under warranty. This is just another fine example of Caterpillar's quality products. One would think after eighty years in business the company could build a dependable engine. How many trouble free hours do the replacement C12's have, fifty? As for salinity levels, high sodium has never been a good indicator of aftercooler trouble in these engines. High iron is a better indicator and is typically indicative of a condensation issue as opposed to a raw water ingestion issue. I'd like to know what the right way to go about getting a replacement engine from Caterpillar is. During the past ten years I've sat down and discussed my engine problems with the local service department manager, made dozens of telephone calls up and down the corporate chain of command, made dozens of emails up and down the corporate chain. Despite the fact that my latest engine breakdown was a direct result of a failed/defective aftercooler, Caterpillar wouldn't even agree to pay for repairs without the threat of a lawsuit. And then their asshole lawyer only offered to pay a small percentage of the repair bill. Far be it from me to know how to deal with these assholes. Just waiting for the day when I can afford to buy a John Deere. I'm tired of dealing with Caterpillar's dog and pony show customer service. Cat reps have the dog and pony show so well rehearsed they could perform at Barnum and Bailey's - where a new sucker is born every minute. Storm Last edited by Storm; 10-25-2009 at 06:56 PM.

10-25-2009, 07:04 PM	#16
seapower I think Admin is going to let me have this space Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Bath,NC Posts: 1,448 Credits: 4,821.8 Boat: 25' DownEaster Home Port: Bath, NC Best Catch: My wife Occupation: marine diesel service owner	Storm, Won't argue the point of failure with you. As for his engine's, salt injestion was the problem, well the main problem anyway (there were other thing's aswell). By the way the guy that had the engine's replaced is a lawyer himself, speak's for itself. Frank

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10-25-2009, 07:00 PM	#15
Fortunate One Stop staring at my Avatar. Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 434 Credits: 3,238.5	The only people to make out in a class action suit are lawyers, so my advice is to give it up. If cummins isn't willing to correct the problem and it's your motor having problems then don't purchase another cummins engine. I can't believe the abuse Cat owners have endured over the years but that's another story. If a problem has been identified and a manufacturer hasn't step right up to fix it then pass the word and the rest of us will quit purchasing this junk. Let them go the way of the auto industry. Quit being so brand loyal. If the motors are good then the reputation will carry the business. Once they turn their backs on a problem then we should stick a fork in them.

10-25-2009, 09:02 PM	#17
Storm Anthony's Ark is a blowboater Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cape Elizabeth, Maine Posts: 285 Credits: 2,197.0	Well there you have it. I just recently (several weeks ago) responded to an individuals question as to whether or not Cat would repair or replace the 3196 engines in the 50' Sea Ray he was considering purchasing. This is what I said: "If you are an individual of some influence, for example a U.S. Senator, a federal circuit court judge, or a prominent lawyer - there's a chance that Caterpillar might incur the cost to repair or replace your defective 3196/C12 engine. I understand this has been the case for certain privileged individuals. If you're a common, working-class individual like me, be prepared for Caterpillar's infamous dog and pony show." Storm

10-25-2009, 09:47 PM	#18
Storm Anthony's Ark is a blowboater Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cape Elizabeth, Maine Posts: 285 Credits: 2,197.0	This just in from a Wall Street Journal press release: According to Caterpillar Group President Stu Levenick, "For more than 80 years, Caterpillar and its global dealer network have worked side by side to provide our customers with unmatched products and service support." That's a bold statement for a company that produces an engine with an eighty to ninety percent aftercooler failure rate and its customer support amounts to a dog and pony show. Good thing its products and service support are unmatched. There's still hope that other manufacturers produce quality products and provide real customer support. Storm

10-26-2009, 02:25 PM	#19
I'd rather be gulfing #1 Lurker Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 3 Credits: 49.0	but , Fortunate One, Cummins is now forced to fix the problem if you make a claim. why wait until the engine fails and change brands when you can get the aftercooler problem fixed now for free? who cares about the lawyers - i just want my engine to keep working. period. so why not do the free retrofit?

10-26-2009, 03:31 PM	#20
Fortunate One Stop staring at my Avatar. Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 434 Credits: 3,238.5	I'd rather be gulfing, in a class action lawsuit they may be able to get away with offering some type of settlement other than correcting the problem. Their argument will be that the product was placed into use and therefore they should only be on the hook for a pro-rated repair. If there is a method to correct the problem without voiding the warranty then the smart thing to do is to correct it. Otherwise a damaged motor is not going to do you any good and if Cummins settles somewhere along the line and who knows when that will be, you could lose the use of the boat for an extended period of time while you wait. Or even worse severely damage the engine with no recourse if they are not found liable to correct the problem.