Question for P Pakula or others, thoughts on outboard engine trolling challenges

[mscontender]

I notice that Pakula has done a lot of trolling behind outboards and I greatly value his opinion! I have always trolled behind outboard engines and have always felt severely disadvantaged to the inboard diesel boats. Propwash/engine exhaust out hubs has always created sooo much turbulence behind the boat. I have tried trolling with only one engine, trolling slower (but then lures don't work right), switching to live baiting (when appropriate bait can be caught) changing pattern out to dead ballyhoo and slowing to 4 knts. Am I over worrying about poor conditions behind an outboard? How do you guys deal with this problem or do you even worry about it. thinking about creating a spread of the Williamson live series baits to use when live bait can't be caught Thoughts? Ideas?

[Pakula]

Thanks for the question,

Yes, I've read a lot of threads about outboards being a disadvantage, and one type of boat, motors being better than others.

It's crap

Two worst things I see guys do, not just in outboards
1: Troll too fast, so wash goes to crap
2: Outriggers just long enough to put lures right in the wash instead of outside it. ( Just changed the riggers on my 257 Grady White from whatever came with it to 20 foot graphites; (Last photos in this Gallery) It still needs a longer Shotgun Pole, hopefully arriving this week.

Single worst thing is not using teasers, or not using them correctly.

The right trolling speed is where you have a nice clean wash, in outboard boats that's around 6.5 knots (water speed, not GPS speed) to 7.5knots.

Outriggers should be long enough to get your outside lures: long rigger and Short Rigger so that your lures run in clean water on the outside of the side wash, this is as much for lure stability as it is for fish seeing the lures.

For side lures ie Short Corner and Long corner you need to have them running between the prop wash and side wash, once again in clean water. There should be 'blue holes' to run the lures in.

If you can't get your lures to run there you may need something like side riggers or out rigger rod holders like this:


The slower you go, the closer the lures are run to the boat and the higher you run your riggers.

Shotgun lures are positioned just behind the end of the prop wash white water / turbulence.

Also get rid of the baggage the lures are carrying, ie get rid of wind-ons if you use them or lighten them by 50%. You don't need leader stronger than your anchor rope.

The bit about teasers:
There are lots of great teasers and spreader bars on the market, Fred Archers Bars, strip teasers, Pakula Witchdoctors (not the copies etc, of of which will result in LESS fish........ if you don't use them right.

Run lures or baits just behind them to catch whatever comes up on them. Lures or baits shouldn't be further than 20 foot from the teaser/s, closer is better.

First position lures so they are working well, then set the teasers relative to the working lures.

Here are a couple of vids that show this stuff:




There's probably more to it. If you have any video of your boat on the troll, try and let me see it, or photos of the boat so I can see the set-up.

[mscontender]

Peter
Sincere and hearfelt thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge!! Internet is an amazing thing!! Thank you!

I will go thru my pics and short videos to see if I can find one/some showing the wash, the boat is a 36 YF with trip F250s and with all three engines running I put off significant wash.

thanks again!!

Robert

[mscontender]

Here is one pic I found of what I would call typcal prop wash on my boat, as you can see there is a lot of "sloppy wash" outside of the engine wash. I use 15' riggers and typically troll six lines (two off each rigger) plus a shotgun and a teaser off each stern cleat. My short corners normally run right on the edge of the wash and I am able to get the riggers out of the primary wash. I realize a lot of how the wash looks has to do with speed and sea state, would you try trolling with only one engine on?

[Pakula]

I'd suggest, trolling with the two oputside motors and getting the longest riggers your boat can handle to get the lurers into cleaner water.

Bart Miller suggested in a similar post that outriggers should be the length of the boat, ie 30 foot boat should have 30 foot outriggers.

I'm not sure how practical that is with T'top type holders, but I'd get them as long as your boat can handle.

The wash in the photo isn't that bad, but 15 foot riggers are much too short. The riggers should aslso be as stiff as possible.

Next topic is using lures that work together, ie a 'pattern' of lures that work as a team. Because of the lack of heigh to see the lures working this is harder to get right from deck level.

Are you running a mix of brands and shapes?
Can you give me a typical pattern you'd run?

[mscontender]

A normal "any day" pattern for me involves a fender type teaser on one corner and a ballyhoo dredge on the other, both about 10-15' back and weighted. My short corners are ususally a 14" Black Bart Marlin Candy and either a Joe Yee Plunger or Moldcraft 12" Wide Range, (all these are dark colored, blacks, purple with glitter etc..) then depending on sea conditions I will run a slant and a flat face lure on the short riggers, favorites are the 10" mini 1656 Black Bart angled face and 12" Marlin Magic (that looks a lot like a Wide Range Moldcraft) colors are usually blue/white and or a lumo type color, on the long riggers (most of my success) I always run either a 9 or 10" lumo sprocket and if conditons allow a mini 1656 angle face that is blue/white. My shotgun varies but is alway a small bullet like a Ahi P or something similar.

Most of our pelagics feed on flying fish in my area so my favorite colors tend to be blues and white glitter. I tend to run the largest lures up close and smallest on the LRs. I keep fairly good records and the Lumo sprocket probably accounts for 50% of the billfish action followed by the 1656.

We are blessed in the norther gulf of Mexico to have a great variety of game fish, white and blue marlin, wahoo, mahi mahi and tuna are all possible on any given day

Thanks for the advice

Robert

[Captain Fred Archer]

Hooray! With a tip of my nasty old fishing hat to (FISH)DOCTOR PAKULA, I am utterly delighted to jump with him into and all over another one of those bull shed (say it fast) myths that are so persistent and so annoyingly repeated by certain fishermen who actually discourage other fishermen who do "that don't work" things like trolling for pelagics from outboard powered boats. I suspect that Peter has done more outboard motor trolling than I, but I have done a lot of it too. And not only that, most of the time I did so in the very same waters where I operated twin diesel powered sportfishermen, so I had a real basis for comparison. The biggest difference between the fish catching performance between outboard boats and diesel boats were first and foremost the skill and knowledge of their crews...NOT what kind of wheels they were turning off of what kind of mills. I repeat my mantra that knowledge remains the key to fishing success.

Now, before I go off on one of my old tirades (because the promulgation of this sort of MYTH by people who supposedly KNOW really tics me off), let me just say to Robert that to my eye, at least, your wake looks remarkably clean for running three outboards, but it does have a huge white core about it that probably attracts the heck out of fish, but that might tend to hide baits run in it (but not below it...hint, hint! The world of trolling BOTH deep and on the surface at the same time awaits those willing to learn of it). Like Peter, I suggest that you run on the two outboard engines and kill the center one to check out what your wake looks like. You may find that you actually like the three motor thing better. The key is to keep experimenting.

As for teasers, I am very partial to Toads and NOT traditional dredges - especially ones with real meat on them (give me lightweight, easy trolling and handling composite ones with hollow squids) and I'd move the Toad or other big teaser like Dr. Pete's Witch Doctor right down the middle and that would be it, except that you won't find me trolling a regular lure, including some of Peter's killers, any other way than chasing after little pods of fleeing baits on light, narrow SuperBars. THAT's the way to load up your spread with plenty of hot lures and lot's of teasers, which simply attracts AND TURNS ON more fish!

Oops! There I go, fooling around with your spread! A great deal of the fun in trolling is experimenting and learning, rather than just doing the same old thing over and over again. So have fun, Robert, try some of the things we old guys try to pass on and go catch up a bunch of bigun's!

Isn't this a great site, what with true masters, like Peter and Roddy Hays contributing? Yessirree! We're talking the Real Deals, folks!

[mscontender]

I continue to be in awe of this dialogue!! First Peter and now Fred!! Both you men are my kind of fishermen, analytical, data collecting, tradition busting, real offshore experts!!
I sincerely appreciate both of you gentlemen taking the time to respond and add insight.

I mentioned in my response that my spread was an "any day" spread. When we are near the offshore floating oil rigs or see tuna anywhere near us we always, always put out at least one or more Superbars, and they are always the ones that get killed!

To anyone following this thread, I highly recommend scouring Pakula's website as it is chalk full of really good data, I also recommend Capt Fred's ebooks. I have them all and frequently go back and re read for insight or ideas.

Both you gentlemen have helped renew my confidence in trolling behind by boat, for now I will put aside any crazy half baked ideas I have had to offset my "believed" in sufficiencies.

If you guys only knew the money I would have paid for this advice!! Oh well, I will turn that into buying more Sprockets and Superbars!

Peter: did you buy the Lees or CE Smith carbon fiber poles?

Fred, here is one of the many tuna your bars have been responsible for.


Thanks again

Robert

[Pakula]

Thanks for your comments, and of course Fred's.

I bought local outriggers made by Precision Rods.
Just get the stiffest you can.

I'm really glad to hear the the Lumo Med Sprocket accounts for 50% of your fish, but.......... it shouldn't. No lure or position should get more fish than any other over a season.

We need to get the others in the spread pulling their weight and paying their way.

Fortunately you are already getting most of it right ie big lures close, small lures out back.

I'll give you a list of lures and positions based on the new Softease Fang Range: http://www.pakula.com.au/index.php?o...ap=2&Itemid=66

But first lets crowd that long rigger and compete with it.

Move the close lures back closer to the long rigger and bring the shotgun in. ie crowd the Medium Sprocket by tightening up the pattern around the long rigger.

Drop the teasers back as well.

This is not a long term thing, once we get other lures getting their fare share you can then put lures back to where you have them now.

Pattern;
Shotgun: Fallen Angel Phantom
Long Rigger: your Lumo Medium Sprocket
Short Rigger: Violeta or Fuzz or Blue Kona Mouse
Long Corner: Evil Angel or Fallen Angel Bagwan or Sprocket
Short Corner: Hot Frigate Wombat (16") or Hot Frigate Rat (13")

To take it one step further run the lures in the positions that haven't been getting shots without hooks as this will allow the lures to work at their best.

Also because the lures don't have hooks you can lighten the leaders and shorten them until they are getting their fare share.

Once they do that, put hooks in them and over time move them back into normal positions.

Or you can just trust my judgement and go with the pattern and adjust leader lengths and thickness as required.

Note that hard leaders have more than twice the abrasion resistance as normal soft leaders so you can drop leader thickness using hard nylons.

Do not stiff rig Pakula lures.

If you can't find the lures I've given please email me at: pakula@pakula.com.au or Skye me at: dojopeche

[mscontender]

Peter,
You have given me much to ponder and study!! I like your suggestions and understand the methodology, Reality is here in the Gulf of Mexico, our billfish season will not start for another month or so, so I will have to wait to put it to test. In the meantime I ordered a pair of Lee's 20' Carabon Fiber outriggers to replace my current 15' AL poles.

I think one of the reason I have such success with the lumo sprocket is my total confidence in it, it's always on the port long rigger! while other lures get switched out and tested, the sprocket always stays! This began because it always runs well, in all seas! while other lures can be finicky as to the sea state they run well in. My hat goes off to you for designing such a well running lure!

Between Melton, Capt Harry's and my local dealer J&M Tackle in Orange Beach, AL, I am able to get all your lures and rigs, as they are very popular on our coast.

I have also changed out all my hook rigs to one that looks a lot like yours and B Barts, (they all used to be shrink tubing stiff rigs, adjusted with spacing beads) I am now using 700# cable not covered with shrink tubing except for the hook eye connection and cut to the needed total length, negating the need for spacing beads. This seems like a much less rigid, but effective method.

What are your thoughts on leaders for your lures and similar sized lures? I am currently using a mix of Moi Moi Xtra hard 300# and some 250 "soft" leader as well as some as light as 150# for the very small 8" lures.

Thanks again for the all the thoughtful insight!!

Robert