Captain Tred Barta - FISHING: Calcutta Kill Tournaments

[HUMMERDUDE]

[sportfishingusa]

Originally Posted by joeksr

I don't see how billfish tournaments can be called a "cancer" on the sport or how they will significantly affect the billfish population. Just looked up the statistics from the 2008 White
Marlin Open in Ocean City Md.
300 boats fished.
Released Boated.
White marlin 349 16
Blue marlin 23 3
Sailfish 12
Spearfish 3

Total 387 19

Millions of dollars in prize money, 300 boats.
19 Billfish killed.
Hardly a bloodbath.
With the number of released fish it would seem that the captains and crews of the boats fishing have a pretty good idea as to what a qualifying fish is.
As to teaching Kids about conservation.
Conservation is not about "You can't take any", It's about not taking to much. Tournament fishing or meat fishing, As long as you are not taking more than you can use I don't see a conflict here.
If other tournaments are killing excessive numbers of billfish,
Perhaps the answer is to set higher size and weight limits in these tournaments, Not eliminate the tournament.
Just my opinion.

i agree with what you have said joe. the numbers in the tourneys say it all. conservation is not about not killing, it is all about limiting.

we limit ourselves every single day of our lives.. tree huggers think not eating a hamburger is going to save the lives of millions of cows.. WRONG...

just as i believe that kiling 19 billfish in a 4 or 5 day tournament and having hundreds released is an incredible ratio. i do not feel that i has anything to do with the depletion of stock on any fish.

the fish that become low on stock are the ones that are overfished commercially in most parts.. but then again.. commercial fisheries have their limits and they are set by standard numbers by scientists who are trained in this field.

we may not believe that raising a limit on say fluke to 18" for 5 year will do anything but i bet you it does. and if it doesnt then it is a lesson learned.

billfish are caught in many many different ways. trolling, live baiting, j hooks, circle hooks, and long lines. they live and they die just like the rest of the world and after they die it is either taken to weigh ins and it is taken for food.

i remember years ago when everyone was up in arms about the possible placement of the white marlin on the endangered species list. this was a big shock for a lot of people and everyone was flipping out. then they do some more research and see that hey, these are not and the stocks have rebounded like crazy.

the third world countries do put a strain on some stocks but by killing 100 billfish or more a year is not going to hurt anything or anybody.

saying that calcutta billfish tournaments are like cancer to our sport?!? AND CANCER TO THE STOCKS?!? that is just plain rediculous..

i know about the barta boys and girls billfish tournament and i know that it is all release and all by honestly.. but if there was 100k at stake, you bet your behind there would not be a whole fleet of honest people. it is just some people can not handle the competition...

i would also like to point out that everyone stares at the scales and what fish is brough into this.. i would like to see someone go out with electronic monitoring tags and fish a crap load of blue marlin and let them go after a several hour fight.. everyone knows they die with a gaff and a scale but no one ever thinks to know what happens after they swim away. i mean come on. a 1000 lb fish fighting for 5 hours and then it gets released with severe lethargy... chances are this fish might swim a little deep and a little more but chances are this fish is going to eventualy work its way to the bottom and die off and let plankton and other garbage feed on it....

these are trophy fish and every species in the world has a trophy of some kind.

why dont people complain about the asa??! or the aka?!? they are kill tourneys.. it is all the same. the stocks on fish are not that low and when they do.... AND IF THEY DO.. TRUST ME THE DAMN SCIENTISTS WILL BE ALL OVER IT AND START SHUTTING IT DOWN...

[Flatdog]

Hi Capt Tred and welcome, I would like to come at this from another angle.
As a game ranger in Africa for many years (retired), and dealing with poachers, on a weekly basis, mother nature within reason has built in to her survival rate a certain number of deaths, for protein be it to man or beast, law of the Jungle.
The taking of one animal that is totally used were even the horns and hooves are used as glue has been going on for 1000's of years, it's only when so called COMMERCIAL poachers move in and take 100 head a night with refrigerated trucks that there is an imbalance.
The taking of 200 fish across a whole season within tournaments worldwide is hardly an impact, 40 miles of long line need I say more!
But I also understand the thought process of "devil see devil do" As sport fisherman we are the easy targets of tree hugger's, they would not go and tackle the so called big boys because they will get shot at "or sunk" It gets real interesting with 25 guys with AK47's shooting at you in the dark and you only have a .458 bolt action in your hands.
Though I now live in the UK the other side of the pond , I fully understand both sides of this story.
Again welcome to the best site on the net.
Flatdog

[Wireman]

Originally Posted by Swami

Tred:

While I may also disagree with some of the principles of calcutta/kill tournaments, I wouldn't go as far as to say they are "a cancer on our sport." That's crossing the line into sensationalism. I'd like to point out a few things.

You mention that billfish are illegal to sell in the United States as a food fish--this is incorrect. Atlantic billfish are illegal to sell. A recent study done by the IGFA documented that the US was the largest importer in the world of billfish from Costa Rica. There is still a huge market in our country for Pacific billfish species, which must be eliminated as quickly as possible. It's supply and demand: if the demand for Pacific marlin and sailfish dries up, the price goes down to the point where it's no longer feasible for the longliners in the Pacific to fish for them. In Hawaii, it's still common for a day charter, not even fishing in a tournament, to kill a marlin to sell on the docks at the end of the day.The same holds true for Cabo San Lucas, where each charter boat is allowed to take one striped marlin per day for sale (and if you've ever been to Cabo, you know there are 200+ charter boats there). Outlaw this sale and the fleet would go 100 percent release the next day.

Tournaments in general fund a tremendous amount of the current conservation efforts for billfish species around the world, everything from TBF to the Adopt-A-Billfish program. The members of Ducks Unlimited spend a tremendous amount of time and money on waterfowl conservation, yet they think nothing of going out and shooting those same ducks, within the legal season and bag limits and under the increasingly strict state and federal restrictions on gear (steel shot, etc).

Finally, the vast majority of tournament-caught billfish are released, something on the order of 90-plus percent. The very few large fish that are killed for money are still a drop in the proverbial bucket compared to the number that are killed by commercial longlining. Tournament anglers are now mandated to use circle hooks in anything other than artificial lures to ensure that the 90-plus percent of billfish released are done so in as good a shape as possible.

I would rather see you use your personality and energy to fight the real cause of worldwide billfish stock decline, and that's high-seas commercial longlining and purse seining.

Thank you for reading,

Sam

Very well stated Swami. Couldn't agree more!

[hubris 1]

i hear all the other arguments. and thats fine, if its ok with you. i used to hunt too. today i just watch the deer look in my window, never thinking of killing them. i have no problem if you want to kill it. i just dont. i could never shoot a bear, or a fox.......but a rabbit. hey thats what their for. i will say though, some of these tournaments are just a disguise for what they really are. money making, fuel burns. watching guy harvey stand over a dead marlin and take pictures makes me laugh. seeing a bioligist stand over a marlin and take a core sample is a joke. dont insult me. at least call it what it is. its a deflection before it goes in the dumpster, sorry it didnt win. we only hang the winner. so, i get it.........its about money. just say it, its about the money. stop acting like your from the govt to fix the problem because then............i lose respect for what your really about. sorry, i thought i was in mix it up......and were talking politics. tred, couldnt have shot that grizzley with a bow, but i hear ya. i would never kill a marlin but if i hate anyone else for doing it ......no ones left!

[SeaBiscuit]

I too struggle to see what's so special about billfish. Smoked sail is good for sure and the fresh blue marlin I ate twice this year was better than the average large pelagic. Pino says white is yum and Pino knows food! Why all the fuss with the billfish?

We are using up precious energy and lobbying power talking billfish while standing by watching (sometimes even contributing) to the extinction of the bluefin. I wish they too had a bill or unicorn or something that would qualify them as "special'. Perhaps then they'd have a chance of survival.

Save the giant otherwise our kids will never see one.

SeaBiscuit

[joeksr]

Originally Posted by hubris 1

i hear all the other arguments. and thats fine, if its ok with you. i used to hunt too. today i just watch the deer look in my window, never thinking of killing them. i have no problem if you want to kill it. i just dont. i could never shoot a bear, or a fox.......but a rabbit. hey thats what their for. i will say though, some of these tournaments are just a disguise for what they really are. money making, fuel burns. watching guy harvey stand over a dead marlin and take pictures makes me laugh. seeing a bioligist stand over a marlin and take a core sample is a joke. dont insult me. at least call it what it is. its a deflection before it goes in the dumpster, sorry it didnt win. we only hang the winner. so, i get it.........its about money. just say it, its about the money. stop acting like your from the govt to fix the problem because then............i lose respect for what your really about. sorry, i thought i was in mix it up......and were talking politics. tred, couldnt have shot that grizzley with a bow, but i hear ya. i would never kill a marlin but if i hate anyone else for doing it ......no ones left!

Your funny. Rabbits are for killing. Why ?
Cause they eat YOUR plants ? It's Ok ?
Killing Rabbits is easy. No competition, Just shoot.
do you eat the rabbits you kill ? If not you are wasting a resource.
Tournaments are about competing with the best.
The question was, I think, Is a kill tournament anti conservation. See my post above, I think not.
Do people spend a lot of money on and in tournaments, Absolutely. So what. It's fun. It's a challenge and nowheres near as disastrous to the fishery as the post on the site with dead strippers floating everywhere.
Link below.
Would you shoot a bear with a bow. I doubt you would get that close. Try a Rabbit with a bow, they dont get pissed quite as bad as a bear if ya dont kill it.

http://www.sportfishermen.com/board/...tch-55700.html

[hubris 1]

hey, if i ever catch a marlin eating my landscape.........hes dead! otherwise, i wont do it. and no, i dont eat the rabbits. and if the squirrels start eating anything they are dead too. just because.

[Russell A. Jost]

What will we gain and what will we lose by doing away with kill tournaments.
We will gain 20 to 25 marlin still swimming.
We will lose:
Dozens of short term employment opportunities for people who can use the extra money.
Millons of dollars spent into the local economy for hotels, restaurants, bait and tackle, the local benefit is huge.
The science, where will the opportunities come form to study the resource, the goverment, not likely since the sportfishing industry is providing a means to do this at our expense.
The money that is generated to support the conservation and science efforts. Call it hypocritical if you like. I am sure the recipients are very thankful for the support.
My personal fealings about this entire thread...Tred said attack the issue not the person. That is hard to do when my activities as a sportfisherman are referred to as a cancer. Will I kill a marlin as a recreational fisherman.. No. Will I kill a marlin as a tournament participant..Yes. Tred brings children into the issue to support his view. My response is you raise yours your way, I have already successfully raised mine.
I can't help but notice " the put your ad here" all over these pages. So is your staunch in your face position what you really believe or is your marketability coming into play here. I do not be-grudge you one cent you have ever made for I too am a capitalist.
I also believe that you have not directed your efforts towards the other industries that are responsible for over 90% of billfish mortality because you do not have an audience there. And hence no marketability. Just my views.

[floridadeckie]

Originally Posted by hubris 1

i will say though, some of these tournaments are just a disguise for what they really are. money making, fuel burns. watching guy harvey stand over a dead marlin and take pictures makes me laugh. seeing a bioligist stand over a marlin and take a core sample is a joke. dont insult me. at least call it what it is. its a deflection before it goes in the dumpster, sorry it didnt win. we only hang the winner. so, i get it.........its about money.

if kill tournaments are soley created and run for the purpose of burning dead dino's and waving wads of cash in front of the cameras over dead fish, the tournaments like tred's are simply a disguise to burn fuel and write off a tax deduction (donations).
now, both of these comparisons are obviously exagerated protrayals of the actual thing. Tred's tournament (which i fished both as an angler and as a crewmember in walkers) is incredible fun, and I love the light tackle/dead bait/no-kill format. its a pleasant change from the high stakes money tournaments. with all that said, after a while the "feel-good" slap on the back and paper trophy lose their exictement when compared to cash in hand.
alot of these big fish that are set up on the dock are big females that have already spread their seed many times over, and I for one refuse to kill a fish unless there is no doubt in my mind its well over 600. why would you when a released blue gets you guranteed 600 points regardless of size and a boated blue is a point per pound? you loose 100 points by boating a 500.
Fundamentally, I agree with tred on most of his points. I must, however, disagree with a few of them. are kill tournaments a cancer on our sport? most definitely not. if they are anything bad, they are a necesary evil. like previously mentioned, tag flags dont draw spectators to the docks and marinas like a big deadblue. does is suck to see 300 and 400 pound rats being hung? you're damn right it does. I would like to see tighter restrictions put on kill tournaments, such as benchmark length limits, where the largest fish killed the previous day becomes the minimum length requirement. that keeps stacks of rats from being killed and reduces the risk of a long but skinny fish being under the weight requirement.

As a whole, people respond better to incentive. The competion is higher when large amounts of money are involved. As a result, fisherman are forced to get better when competion is higher, otherwise they are left in the dust and out of the money. When crews are forced to get better, they come up with new techniques that improve efficiency, catch ratios, and potentially reduce enviromental impact. examples of such would be: snooters, circle hook rigging techniques, tag stick mounted line cutters, using moldcraft baitheads to cushions tag stick blows and reduce tag depth, the list goes one.

alex, are you going to jump over board and take a core sample of a live, swimming marlin for the sake of science? you gonna politely ask it to hold still while you check whether its a breeding male or female, or whether its fertile? dont think so. in all the kill tournaments I've fished here in the south and the bahamas, I have not seen ONE SINGLE FISH go in the dumpster to rot. in boat harbor, the locals show up with trash bags and take chunks of free meat home to feed their families for weeks. nylon tag flags probably wont grill up as well as marlin flesh. scientists use the specimens to record all sorts of data from age, weight,sex, their stage in the breeding cycle, and so on. none of this would be possible if a few fish didnt pay the price and hit the dock.