Trolling for tuna with bali and C hooks

[Squidnation]

But if there is no natural bait behind the jet do we have to have the circle or just in a bait correct!?

artificials without bait can be J-hook anytime, anyplace, any tournament.

[sportfishingusa]

Thanks Squid!!

The perfect clarification i needed!! Thanks

[SeaMent]

But if there is no natural bait behind the jet do we have to have the circle or just in a bait correct!?

Circles are required in Dead Bait and Dead Bait Combo rigs in tournament fishing only for BILLFISH
Artificial Lures are not required to have Circle Hooks, you can still use J Hooks in Artificial rigs for BILLISH in tournament fishing

[sportfishingusa]

Thanks sea!! that was quick and informative! i appreciate it!

[JonnyD]

Yes, Circles catch tunas. We don't worry about droppin back either. Right or wrong we lock'em up to full immediately on anything that isnt a billfish about 95% of the time on our fishing trips. Just dont want to spend too much time on bycatch, so the faster we can get them in and in the box, the more time we have to look for the enemy. Our hookup percentage has been awesome on tunas with the Eagle Claw L2004 hooks. It's funny that you can fight a 60 pound Yellowfin on a 7/0 circle with the drag locked up, and cant pull'em off or straighten the hook, but you can't fight a white or sail with over 5 pounds of drag without a hook pullin or straightening. Anyhow, good luck this summer and give the circles a try, even tuna fishing.

[Capt Carl]

I have been using circles exclusively in bait for several years now. Initially we dropped back to all bites, as if for a billfish. When the tunas piled on, all were hooked in the corner of the jaw, but they had a nice head start on the angler from the drop back.
We then tried using strike drag when primarily looking for tuna, and the results were the same! The fish were to the boat much sooner. My guess is that the tuna hit a bait so aggressively, and clamp their mouths closed, that the hook hits the mouth instantly. Our hook up ratio is much higher than with the J's, and once hooked, they don't come unglued.

I have been trying plastics with the circles for over a year now, and the results are encouraging. Not ready to give up the J's here yet, but very close with the smaller lures.

Hope this helps.

[Captain Fred Archer]

AHA! We get closer to the truth as more anglers toss out the "ya gotta drop back" stuff!

The bottom line, from my article in the next edition of Big Game Journal (and in far greater detail in my new marlin book.)

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A C-HOOK LURE BITE AND A BAIT ONE
I believe that the single biggest reason why, and maybe even especially why those who use C-hooks in baits have a hard time believing that they would work in lures is a direct result of the mantra that bait fishermen go by – “You need to let a marlin or any other fish eat that bait, maybe even swallow it and then turn and swim at an angle or away in order for the circle to go to the corner of its mouth or jaw and catch it.” Ho-hum! I don’t happen to buy into that with the bridled baits that I fish with, but that’s another story for another article. Short and sweet, the point here is to not get all hung up over the fish "needing to eat the lure", or “getting it well into its mouth" and the "turning away so that the C hook slides into the corner of their mouths" speculations by those who haven't fished C's in lures extensively.

Remember, the shortest distance between a C-hook and where it is designed to go is from the mouth to the jaw corner, NOT from the guts, out the gullet, past the gills, then back up into the mouth and finally, to the corner of the jaw. Kinda like that "shortest distance between two points" thing, if you know what I mean.

Believing the mantra and the need for a C-hook to travel that long road boils down to listening to people who are guessing or basing what they say on hearsay, and ignoring people with the experience to know. There is always a long way and a short way to learn things. A key to the latter is the willingness to listen to and learn from those who know and are willing to share. Some do that, some don't.

“SLOW AS MOLASSES VERSUS AS FAST AS LIQUID LIGHTNING”
In a nutshell, that is the difference between a bait bite and one on a trolled lure and it is critical to understand the difference if you are going to develop the confidence to rig and use C-hooks in lures and natural baits. First and foremost, one has to recognize that the physical dynamics of a trolled marlin or other fish coming in at their usual wharp speed, which is invariably faster than the lure, and attacking one that is traveling at seven to twelve knots. Those dynamics are radically different than the ones involved in that same fish coming in and scooping up a dead or live bait, no matter what kind of hook it's on. Compared to a troll lure bite, a bite on live or dead bait is done in virtual slow motion, while in contrast, everything that happens in the trolling scenario happens far, far faster.

Everything from the speed of the bite, to the crushing of the lure, even to swallowing it happens in a flash during a troll bite on a lure compared to a bait bite. One of those differences is that the hook is set by the angler on the bait bite, while it is usually set by the boat on a troll bite. These differences in bite dynamics are important to recognize and remember when we consider the how's and why's of billfish, or any other kinds of fish strikes on C-hook bearing lures. The differences are, in fact, vast, not minute and in the case of the "grab, crush and gulp" feeding marlin versus that same fish slurping down a drifted, slow trolled, pitched baited bait, or one knocked out of an outrigger clip are both considerable and key to hooking them.

SO FORGET THE DEAD OR LIVE BAIT “C-HOOK RULES”


That's all I'm at liberty to quote from the article, a long one, right now. And yes, it also discusses trolling natural baits too. And the experiences that the couple of guys who have been fishing circles in trolled baits and lures and have gone out and put the hooks to work for them have shown pretty much what I have seen, just not as many times. Hooray for you guys! Instead of sitting around, jibble-jabbling and getting hooked on conventional wisdom that is based on what people have learned fishing C's an entirely different way (Hellooo. Bait and switch fishing, something that, from what I have seen, many here run from like it's some kind of plague or something. How sad!), you have taken the bull by the horns, gone out and put the hooks to work for you and have discovered pretty much what I have, only not as many times. You are absolutely on the right path and what you have seen is right on the money...Say, if either of you ever writes a book about this stuff, let me know, 'cause I'll buy it and read it in a heartbeat...

After all, experience and the fish are the best teachers of them all and I am all for gaining the knowledge from that experience, no matter who has gained it and is willing to share it. Otherwise, ah never mind. You know what I mean.

Lock and load.

[Captain Fred Archer]

JohnyD,

I hope you don't mind a little buttinski, but if you are hardcore on the marlin ("searching for the enemy"...man, that warms an old marlin hunter's heart!) and would just as soon skip that "tuna bycatch", or reserve the ability to take any cow 'fins or a steaker alby or bigeye that show, you might want to consider doing a little bait and switch fishing, my way. I have done it for many years now and have found it to be THE way to control what I do and don't catch.

In my case, I had to deal with a five per boat legal tuna limit and a self imposed one that only allowed one really big fish over 200# to be taken unless the client had reason to need that much meat (remember, they were on vacation and couldn't even get very much meat home, even if they tried) we had to deal with releasing tuna after tuna and believe me, that got to be a real pain in the ass. Plus, many times the damned tunas and sometimes the dorados too (five fish Mex boat limit on them too) got in the way of the marlin coming in and trying to jump our bars and baits and mister, marlin were and are king down in Cabo! Once we limited out on the tunas and often dorados too, we didn't want to catch a single other one so that we could get everyone in our party at least one marlin - yes, it was that good down there - and we would have happy campers, big tips for the boys and probably repeat customers and great references to their friends.

And so my crew and I developed our own particular and very different way of bait and switch fishing that literally let us pick and choose what we caught and what we didn't. And that lead to wins in the biggest tuna tournaments on the coast (I didn't fish kill marlin tournaments, or we'd have cleaned house there too/) From what I am reading from your post, this technique would be perfect for you and your goals too. If you agree that it might, let me know and I'll start a thread on the Big Game Board that explains and illustrates it all. Otherwise, I'll just continue on doing it with the others who know the game.

Oh, and did I mention that not only is it incredibley effective, it's more fun than barrel full of monkeys...with or without footballs (that one's for you, Bert! Oh damn, I love dem simians and their rad libido's! Reminds me of when I was a young'un in the golden age of doing the naughty - after penecillin and before aids. Oh yeah and glory be! Git outta the way, monkey and take your damned ball with you! C'mere, little darlin'.

And if no one is interested in what I just posted, no prob. Here I turn to another favorite animal, the dog, for inspiration through their law of, "Hey, if you can't eat it, drink it or hump (tryin' to be polite) it, piss on it!"

[Capt Carl]

Ok Fred,
I'm game. Please post up your bait and switch techniques. I always enjoy reading your posts. Marlin fishing is the real challenge, and here in the northeast the season is short, and the run very long. You have to make all shots count, and catching tuna cuts into the time to chase the real quarry. And I assume you use the toads---? Those toads are very effective teasers when looking for the pointy nose gang. Look forward to hearing from you
Carl

[Captain Fred Archer]

Capt Carl,

Not enough interest here to waste space. Please email me at fredarcher@cox.net and I'll send you the book...on me. I KNOW that it will interest you and with you being so on target as far as time-wasters when you're after marlin only, you are going to get exactly what you want. But do me a favor, will you? Get in a tuna tournament or two, or be in the side pots for them in a couple of marlin tournaments. You will see why I'm asking you to do that as soon as you put the system to work.

Just tell the truth about how you were fishing on the remote, way-out-there, far, far out chance that you come up a winner doing it, okay? Hey, they're only tuna after all, you know?

I have no pride...gratuities from winners are accepted with glee!

Roger on the Toads and thank you, but you ain't seen nothing yet!