Kill Tournaments vs. No Kill Tournaments

[joeksr]

You also have to consider the money involved at the weigh in location. The crowds at harbour Island are huge
waiting for the boats to come to the scales. Nobodys comin to see empty boats arrive.

[Fritz]

Franky:

I like how you voted yes for each answer. The questions are not really fair questions. I also see that there are guys that I know fished commercially for giants all winter and now want to vote for all release in billfish tournaments. The amount of billfish killed in tournaments is neglible, so with that in mind I cast my vote the same as you. I vote yes for the all the answers, which is as good as none of the above.

[Deep C]

I'm seeing an interesting diversion from the topic to the discussion of observers and cheating and such... Observers are human, therefore subject to the same variables that can set up problems. They can be bought. They can offer to be bought. They can miscall a release either for or against it. They can be a liability if they are less than sea worthy.
This year I fished a couple interesting events. One was all release format and the other a kill if it qualifies. Both events used to have observers and they did away with them. Both events went to digital stills. Time date stamp of course. Inspect the camera to make sure the card is clear and take a specific shot to initialize the card. The one even was able to watermark that chip as being the one it had read before. Each days fish were uploaded to their system to verify species and legal release status. If the shot was not clear enough the fish was disqualified. The number sequnce in the camera would indicate if shots were deleted or added. Each day was a different initialize shot.
At the one release only event they took it a step further to end a sequence with a randomly chosen shot. Foot or gaff or left eye or color card or what ever. The time on your date stamp had to match the time they ordered that closing shot. The other event had you call in hook ups which put others eyes on you. Both solid ways to keep the "cheat" out of it... Just to let you know... The "kill" tourney had no fish killed. Released points determined the winners.
Both events were very tightly run. Random polygraphs at one and random equipment inspections at the other... The only place I saw anything other than rigidity was no real checking for circle hooks... That though was addressed by polygraph at least thats what I was told.
So yes release formats can and do work... The point of the crowd economic potential though effectively requires dead meat on the dock.

[Finnseeker]

Originally Posted by searich

With more and more attention being focused on preserving billfish stocks, it would be interesting to see how the angling public feels about Kill tournaments, especially billfish tourneys. I'd like to get a feel for how serious most tournament anglers are about supporting non-kill tourneys.... in other words, is it still just the money that attracts the participants or do they actually care about the tournament format in regards to conservation?

Please take the time to take part in this poll and thanks in advance for doing so!

RC

Rich,

Money always attracts no matter where or what, money does bring out certain things.

That been said and done the tournaments are changing all around the world. The Bisbees has a min weight 300 lbs and the Mazatlan events have reduced theirs now down to 225 as the blues are so few and far between.

The problem here is that the penalties are not stiff enough for undersized fish and I have seen fish under 200 lbs weighed in at the Bisbees and even smaller ones at the Matzatlan one.

Most seem to think that its still okay to kill a blue or black in a kill event for big money and the only way to weigh a fish to earn the money.

One poster claimed here that all release events create cheating, well in my 23 years as a tournmant director around the world I have seen cheating in many events of weighed fish.

Release events with qualified skilled observers, video camera's, digital camera's do produce a great event. Nothing is perfect in this world but fishing the bisbees, without observers for millions of dollars ?
The release division in the bisbees is a joke. No scrutiny and when 168 boats are fishing an area and only 3 or 4 blues been weighed in for the whole event and then on boat calls in 7-8 released blues...............do me a favor. I was right next to that boat and have it all on video two fish that I saw were striped marlin.

I do believe that all rec fishermen and torunament fishermen are conservationists at heart, the problem here is that the commercials, longliners are doing the damage.

Then if we are to change the way we look at kill events how can we the very same fishermen outcry a commercial sportfishing entity his catch of hundreds of thousands of dollars when we ourselves are fishing the Bisbees and others alike killing blues for millions of dollars.

We all either stop killing blues set an example then we can throw stones at the commercials and point fingers, lead by example. If we cannot do this then we cannot expect a longliner or commercial to give a damm.

If the Kill events go to all release then we can all stand banded/united together and fight for a common cause and that would be to limit and get rid of the longliners raping cabo and other area's where the fish are evaporating.

The sardina's off Mag have nearly all gone, the sardina's off Brazil nearly all gone, the commercial nets are now wrapping in the bay in Rio out of desperation for sardina's. The sardina's are the major source of the food chain and the dorado, tuna, billfish in Cabo have been wiped out by the commercial nets wrapping all the food sources off mag and other places.

The other factor tournaments bring to the locals is needed revenue, money goes to local gov entities, charities, foundations and with the locals needing to fish and feed their families I dont see the Kill events going away soon. They seem to be grandfathered in and accepted now for blues and blacks.

Personally Im responsible and I fish both as are many, the odds of 168 boats killing 168 billfish are 0. The small and few numbers ( 3-5)weighed in once a year in a kill event are not harming the system when considering that a blue is mature at 180 lbs to breed ( scientific data evidence)

WHEN YOU HAVE A STRING OF LONGLINERS KILLING TONS THEN YES.

[Finnseeker]

Originally Posted by Deep C

I'm seeing an interesting diversion from the topic to the discussion of observers and cheating and such... Observers are human, therefore subject to the same variables that can set up problems. They can be bought. They can offer to be bought. They can miscall a release either for or against it. They can be a liability if they are less than sea worthy.
This year I fished a couple interesting events. One was all release format and the other a kill if it qualifies. Both events used to have observers and they did away with them. Both events went to digital stills. Time date stamp of course. Inspect the camera to make sure the card is clear and take a specific shot to initialize the card. The one even was able to watermark that chip as being the one it had read before. Each days fish were uploaded to their system to verify species and legal release status. If the shot was not clear enough the fish was disqualified. The number sequnce in the camera would indicate if shots were deleted or added. Each day was a different initialize shot.
At the one release only event they took it a step further to end a sequence with a randomly chosen shot. Foot or gaff or left eye or color card or what ever. The time on your date stamp had to match the time they ordered that closing shot. The other event had you call in hook ups which put others eyes on you. Both solid ways to keep the "cheat" out of it... Just to let you know... The "kill" tourney had no fish killed. Released points determined the winners.
Both events were very tightly run. Random polygraphs at one and random equipment inspections at the other... The only place I saw anything other than rigidity was no real checking for circle hooks... That though was addressed by polygraph at least thats what I was told.
So yes release formats can and do work... The point of the crowd economic potential though effectively requires dead meat on the dock.

I have been doing this system for 11 years effectively in several events

1.) Each team gets provided with camera's by the tournment and back up's in order that one fails or is dropped or falls into the ocean.
2.) No picture or hand on the leader with fish to identify in the picture its Dq'ed - no questions asked no exceptions. Take two 3 pics if need be.
3.) Each camera is activated before start fishing with a tournment code and picture.
4.) Each team on hook up is required to call it in and given a hook up time and confirmation code. Each fish is then released with picture or fish, and hand and tournmant number card in the picture. TC then gves release time and code and then asks for another oicture to close out that sequence.
5.) With the observer onboard, the observers sheet and the teams sheet/seperate they all have to coincide with TC master sheet, time, code, sequence and picture or the release is Dq'd

The observers, teams can all be pollygraphed if there is any dispute or discrepancy and this we have only done once.

We took a lot of guesswork out by making all billfish equal in points since many cannot know the difference between a juvinile, striped marlin, black marlin, white marlin, blue marlin so if it has a bill, its a billfish and 100 pts.

Our observers are there to observe not make calls or rules and his observer sheet notes all observations. Each observer is required to count the 40 pcs live bait, inspect all hooks and measure all leaders to ensure they comply.

This system works well for us and we have not had observers paid or bought as some indicate. Yes we all human and all humans make errors. With most of us having video camera's on our boats recording 24/7 this is a back up and having 8 cameras onboard realtime ceratinly is effective, with technology allowing for video camera's and digital camera's things have changed and its very difficult to cheat in a tight well organised event

[searich]

Originally Posted by Fritz

that you are completely against kill tournaments by the tone of your questions. I seriously doubt the small amunt of billfish killed in tournaments has any affect on the overall stock, particularly with the minimum size requirements that are in effect. I also believe that there is no angler more dedicated to conservation [yes even those that fish kill tournaments] than a billfisherman. Billfisherman started self policing as a release sport long before any NMFS restrictive regulations were ever put into law. My question for you, is how many billfish tournaments have you participated in and do you participate in the big money so called Kill Tournaments?

Fritz, I have been in tournaments... release tournaments exclusively. I Simply looking to gauge how other anglers feel about it and there are good points on both sides of the issues. For me, however, it's the release tourneys that I choose to support. You have to stick with your convictions.... I've taken two billfish a long while back, wished I didn't now. Does that make me right and you wrong... definitely not. It just seems to me that small changes effect big changes and if a small change in format can result in small increases in billfish populations, then it's worthwhile.

[Deep C]

A lot of guys moaned when they went to the enhanced camera requirements but I am all for it... One of our fish at Miami had leader in hand pretty quick. Pic was no good and it took 14 more minutes to get that fish back and take a pic that met all the criteria... Takes some getting used to, driving the boat and snapping the stills but I like how it tightens up on wishy washy releases.
As for observers being bought and sold... it does happen. Had one years ago walk aboard and ask what the top prize was. I told him and he came back with a number that would "win" it for me. I had his ass on the dock and being lead to the comittee by his ear in a New York second... That was a fairly small event. With millions at stake I'm sure the potential is even greater...

[Bert Rodgers]

Originally Posted by searich

With more and more attention being focused on preserving billfish stocks, it would be interesting to see how the angling public feels about Kill tournaments, especially billfish tourneys. I'd like to get a feel for how serious most tournament anglers are about supporting non-kill tourneys.... in other words, is it still just the money that attracts the participants or do they actually care about the tournament format in regards to conservation?

Please take the time to take part in this poll and thanks in advance for doing so!

RC

Rich your implication that anglers and crews can't/won't/don't support both formats and have a serious conservation ethic is unfair.

Is the payoff a factor, sure itis. Only a fool or a lier would say it isn't. But the truth is, the WMO would disapear without the Million Dollar fish. I know self appointed "Stewards" such as your self can't see the importance of the tradtion and all the facts regarding numbers won't sway your opinion. It would be nice though, in the interest of disclosure, to know where you are coming from and trying to go with this thread.

In other words, beyond having a membership in the Billfish foundation and a subscription to Sport Fishing Magazine , from where do you draw the conclusionthat "Kill" tournaments are a threat to the fisheries that should be eliminated?


I also wonder, on an ethical level, why billfish species should be placed on a level of importance above non billfish species.

Bert

[Team Boat Show Direct]

A single misplaced longline set has the potential to kill more billfish than wind up on the tourney docks combined...
Where the problem lies is killing all the food. You see the big net boats banging bunker, herring, squid, butters, even the ground fish most any place you go. If you want to help the billfish and other big species stop killing the food.[/quote]

I'm with deep, Conservation is important, but all catch and release is unrealistic. Fish are food... as long as nothing is wasted. My answer to the survey is in the middle.

[SeaMent]

[quote=Mike15;340720]And even if observers were on every boat there is always the possibility they would / could be paid off by those with deeper pockets. I'm sure out of 400 observers their would be at least a few crooked ones in the bunch - bottom line is a release tournament with that much money on the line will just not worK

MIKE 15, DON'T THINK THAT THE RULES DON'T GET BENT IN THE KILL TOURNYS, EXAMPLE 2007 WMO- HAVE THEY DETERMINED WHO WON THE BLUE MARLIN MONEY IN THAT CALCUTTA, ANYTIME MONEY IS INVOLVED THERE WILL ALWAYS BE RULE BENDERS, ANGLERS BEWARE