CIRCLE HOOKS WITH BILLFISH LURES ?

[bluemarlin54]

Around 1980 Red Bailey, a popular charter captain in St. Thomas who specialized in trolling rigged, single hook mackerel, developped a new technique:
Since many of his clients weren’t experienced marlin anglers, Bailey used just enough drag, so they could easily transfer the rod tot he fighting chair themselves before comming tight tot he fish. Gone were the problems of timing the strike and then instantly freespooling.Next he applied this modified drop back technique to his lure fishing and again improved his client’s efficiency in catching fish to a hook-up ratios extending 80 percent!
He used Softhead Lures with a stiff Single hook rig. The Lure and the hook rig must be put together so the lure can’t slide up tot he leader. (You’re going to fish this rig like dead bait and you need the lure and the hook to stay together while the fish runs with it) You run it like a dead mackerel. Troll the lure with a very light drag on the reel. On the riggers, use clips or roller-trollers, also set very light – no taglines!!!!
When a billfish strikes, take your time! The key ist o wait till the fish has turned away and realy started running with the lure, which might take 10 seconds. Wait till the reel is realy screaming, then throw it into gear. The fish is lightly tob e hooked in the corner oft he mouth.
The system works best with Softhead lures ( Moldcraft / Pakula) up to / around eight inches, but the increased drag settings may cause the fish to become suspicious and drop the lure.
In general a 12/0 hook ( 7731) is crimped tight & stiff to an 1/16 inches 1x7 aircraft cable so the hook doesnt flop around. The Lure is fixed to the leader with a rubbersleeve, tape or crimp.
Because you always hook your fis with this system in the corner oft he mouth it should work also with Circle Hooks!?!
Did anybody try it?
My next oportunity to test it is fare away, so I cant test it for myself but I am curious, wether it works or not.
Tight Lines
Wolfgang

[Captain Fred Archer]

Wolfgang,

Good post and subject. Sorry that no one has responded, but that sometimes happens with what is "new" to many folks. I'll be back later, but for now, I am very familiar with the Red Baily saga. I knew and fished with him long ago, but the details of what he did came from my pal and his, Frank Johnson of Moldcraft. As I recall, it went like this...

Yes, Red was a confirmed dead bait dragger. In fact, he was one of the last in St. Thomas to start changing over to lures. I guess he didn't ask around or read about how to run them, so he did it the same way as he did bait - let the fish grab the lure and actually drop back to them, but most of the time, not for too long and usually on rigger bites, just long enough for the slack after the 'rigger release came tight to the fish. Then, if he didn't hook up, he would actually freespool and drop the lure back to the fish. And yes, Red had a very high hookup ratio doing this.

Because of the way he fished, he liked the Moldcraft Softheads that Frank had introduced not long before. Frank was so delighted to have a man of Red's caliber and fame using his stuff, he came up with what became (and still is today) "The Red Bailey Special". The big difference between it and the other Moldcrafts was the color. It is red, white, and black. When I asked Frank, "Is that a favorite combination of Red's?" he came back with, "Oh, hell no. It's because Red is a black man, with red hair, and a white wife." No lie! Frank has a great sense of humor and so does Red. And Frank, like me, believes that only two colors are important to the fish - black and white. I can't count the many times I've heard him tell people that and followed it up with "we make all of those other colors for the fisherman, not the fish." I concur, but that too is a sensitive subject that I write about extensively in my books, but not too often on the Web because the silence or hoots hurt my ears!

For a long time Moldcraft used a single hook stiff rig that worked great with their lures that we came up with and of course granted them permission to use on their rigs. In fact, they actually built a lot of those rigs for us to use and sell.

Circle hooks? Absolutely! The problem with that and the reason that you aren't getting any "Oh yeah, they work" is the same reason why circle hooks in baits used to be heresy and we who had used them for many years were either ignored by many, or hooted and hollered at by others when we said so. Believe me, I know...and this wasn't long ago, either. Now C-hooks are de riguer and you'd think that some of those former doubters had been using them for many years, when in truth they are early on the learning curve. It's the same now that some folks are considering using them in lures...as it used to be with C's in natural baits, if someone comes along who has, in fact, used them in lures very effectively for many, many years and says so, the silence can be deafening. It's a human nature thing, I guess.

KNOWLEDGE IS THE KEY TO SUCCESS

My books are loaded with information on circle hooks in lures; how to rig them, how to run them, how to set hooks with them, modifying them to make them work better and much more. That applies to all kinds of lures, all of the way from spreaderbars chasebaits, to regular trolling lures, both hard and soft, and even hard plugs.

Picts

1 is a CaboTiger with a circle hook.
2 is how to rig a hollow squid chasebait with a C-hook
3 is a hard plug rigged circle hook style
4 is today's single hook stiff rig with a J-hook

[bluemarlin54]

Hello Fred,
Thanx 4 the answer , the article & the pics.
Not being a pro, I started feeling like a fool !!!
But now I know : " the other's also cook with water" (german saying)
Next time, that I fish with lures in salty water's, I'll go on with my ideas and experiments.
tight lines
Wolfgang

[sancocho]

Originally Posted by bluemarlin54

Because you always hook your fis with this system in the corner oft he mouth it should work also with Circle Hooks!?!

Did anybody try it?

That is not the same result?

Why rig a lure with a circle hook under the skirt of the lure to hook a billfish in the corner of the mouth if the same lure with a J hook its doing the same work ?

Do not forget,Billfish do not swallow the lures during the bite,If you put something in front of the circle hook the shock leader and the circle hook will not do their job properly in the corner of the mouth,

suerte,

[sancocho]

Its a good system to test with billfish,

http://www.moffittangling.com/control/system

but do not forget this,



suerte,

[Pargon]

We started using circle hooks on lures down here in La Paz a few years ago as the ability to release billfish almost superceded the desire to catch them, almost. After a few fits and starts I think that we have it down. We used Capt. Archer as a reference to help us with the problems.

Size and style of circles-- Fred recommended that we make sure and use large enough hooks. The sizing of circle hooks seems less consistent from maker to maker than that of J hooks to me, and so until we got settled in I stopped buying mail order because I wanted to see the darn things in person before transferring the frog skins. For me, it seems that about 2 sizes bigger than I use in the J variety is best, but again the are all "different" by maker and you need to readjust your mental calibration. The other thing Fred swears by is "NO OFFSET". I suppose that he started using this out of homage to the effectiveness of the commercial long liners, they may not be good for the fishery, but they do know how to do it.
Drag Settings-- For years I was one of those that, even in the face of the advice from countless bonafide experts, thought that my hand could tell me the right drag settings. After all , I've been fishing for almost 50 years and I oughta know. Well I don't. Get yourself a scale, and go through the ritual, reel by reel, of setting the drag to the scale, and label different points on the lever drag. As you get better and better at something the details start to make all the difference between where you are and getting better.
Rigging--We've always used single hook stiff rigs here, because they seem to get the job done without the clear danger of the second hook. Rigging in the upright position, what Fred calls "Scorpion rigged", is our preferred method.
There may well be better ways to do it, and getting experimental data to compare is difficult, but it works for us.

David Jones

[sancocho]

Originally Posted by Pargon

We started using circle hooks on lures down here in La Paz a few years ago

David Jones

Hi from Guatemala,

I was a mate years back here in Guatemala, and my experience with circle hooks its 98% on baits and mix (small lures and bait, ballyhoo and mack) becouse we fish most of the time for sails and some blues and we fish with teasers and 2 or maybe 3 lines with baits all the time, but during the initial tests (1998) we did with the circle hooks i rig some wide range and another simillar size lures with 1 circle hook, we troll the lures but not the enough to get a good conclusion,

Can you post some pics of those lures with circle hook from those few years ago?

Those lure rigs with G hooks was for billfish?

Thanks,

suerte,

[Captain Fred Archer]

Pargon,

Thank you for your insights and positive experiences with circle hooks in lures. The sad thing is that you are "preaching to the choir" here and thus far, at least, very few here seem to be interested in hearing about and learning the true insights of we who have actually used the subject of this board, circle hooks, in lures from those who have begun using them, like you, or from those who have used them for nearly two decades, like me. It seems like even trying to discuss circle hooks in lures is a joke - exactly like they were when used with bait with many hear not long ago - or that it is some evil plot to mislead other fishermen, or somehow to otherwise profit from deceiving them. It gets downright discouraging and, in fact, blows my mind how few indicate interest.

I leave you with a re-post of one I made on the "A taste of the Marlin Book"...

Thank you for the kind words and I'm glad that you have enjoyed the books. Please visit our website to see all of the ones that we have available.

And thank you to those of you who have ordered the marlin book that this little excerpt came from. From the looks of things, as far as some are concerned, it isn't too cool to admit to reading a book about a different approach and the logic and history behind it...kinda like it was with circle hooks versus J's, and many other "different" approaches to bill and pelagic fishing. I'm sure that you have been around here long enough to remember when the circles and the "fools" who strongly recommended were a big joke here. It wasn't that long ago; just check out some of the anchored posts to see that. And the archives are loaded with outcries from what were circle hook haters at the time. Hmmm.

Big game fishing is an ever-evolving thing. New developments and refinements can pop up at any time and maintaining an awareness and knowledge of them is a good thing, especially with diminishing pelagic and billfish populations. I, for one, do not expect to learn the in's and out's of any of those new developments and refinements by osmosis or from someone on the internet who has had no experience using them. I read and listen to anyone who has had a lot more experience, or even the same amount as I have had in such things.

And to be able to acquire that knowledge, the history and logic and every detail about it for less than the price of a "so-so" marlin lure or a couple of packs of ballyhoo? You bet I'm going to a read book that does that for me! Add the fact that it will actually read itself out loud to me and that makes it an even better learning tool.

Oh well, that's me and those of you who have ordered the book. I congratulate those of you who have gotten the book on your willingness to learn and accept the knowledge or reject it, but to have at least gotten a full view of it. And who knows? You might buy into the technique and if you do, you are going to catch a lot more fish.

And oh yeah, this is "The Circle Hook Forum", right? Well, as it should be, this book is chock full of rigging and using information on that style of hook from someone who has used them in baits and artificials for almost twenty years now on a hard core, year-round, five day or more a week basis in an incredible big game venue. And who knows? You might actually learn something new that will help you catch more fish from a guy like that.

Over.

[Patudo]

Pargon, thanks for your comments. I (and I'm sure many others) would appreciate any statistics you have for your circle hook lures on billfish - numbers of bites you had over the last few months/seasons/years, how many hooked up, how many released, of these how many were stripes, sailfish, blue and black marlin and so on.

The results and statistics/numbers achieved by Ron Hamlin and others in Guatemala fleet with circle hooks in bait were widely published in the mainstream offshore fishing media back in 1998-1999. Those numbers probably convinced a lot of fishermen to try circle hooks.

best regards
patudo