What To Do If Americn Turned Off Beck and Olberman

[longfisher]

I've been rightfully pressed by Ace1 to list my suggestions on what Americans might want to do if they could get their priorities straight (parapharased). Below is a list I wrote in in another post some weeks before I was asked for those suggestions. I've added a few things in response to Ace1's question.

1) Erosion of habeous corpus rights

2) Erosion of Posse Commitatas principles and creation of a "North American Command" replete with it's own purposefully tasked Army infantry division

3) Increasing intrusion of religion into secular government

4) Torture of American citizens and permanent residents by the American Government

5) Arrogation of power to the executive branch by fiat and the related issue of the break down of the principle of separation of powers

6) Shrinking role of congress in determining foreign affairs

7) Increasing influence of lobbying dollars on the decision our lawmakers make (and a related issue, the incredible cost of getting elected in the first place that requires those and many other dollars)

8) Black budget items that are never voted on by Congress and therefore remain unaccountable to the people

9) Significant but unpunished wrongdoing on the part of Presidents (of all parties) and their minions which serves to sanctify and embolden an elite class and diminish the rule of law.

10) American exceptionalism and adverturism

11) Impact of foreign lobby's on our govrnment and foreign affairs (think Israel, Turkey, China, Cuba, etc.)

12) Disenfranchisement of the poorer among us

13) Healthcare (I'm a health insurance agent and believe me there's enormous pain and suffering out there)

14) Public schools increasing being used as propoganda organs of the state or religious factions.

15) Absence of any real accountability in the financial sector for the great harm their unfettered greed causes despite a plethora of regulatory bodies.

16) Class conflicts

17) Increasingly heavy hand that Wall Street plays in our lives (remember when there were pension plans and not 401K's and when health insurance didn't have Health Savings Accounts and when life insurance cash value accumulated without having investment vehicles attached)

18) Incivility in the population which prevents meaningful discourse.

19) Overall disregard for the rights and humanity of foreigners

20) Abuse of the troops by sending them on adventures that are patently illegal, immoral and injurious.

21) Culturing a warrior class among the military in a nation that heretofore prided itself on being a peaceful nation

22) Predatory trade and IMF policies that impoverish other nations and cause anti-Americanism

23) Western goepolitical control of world bodies like the U.N. (if other nations dont' feel they can have their grievances objectively addressed they'll splinter from the world community and form their own, separate bodies where we won't have a voice, think Shanghai Cooperation Organization)

24) Encirclement of Russia which remains the single most important mortal threat to America; i.e., encirclement will make them react as history shows they always have, with arms and conflict.

25) Defense budget of the U.S. exceeding that of all the rest of the world combined. If all you have is a hammer each problem increasingly resembles a nail.

26) Looming hyperinflation and devaluation of the dollar if Obama carries through with his planned expenditures without a significant recovery of the U.S. economy INCLUDING JOBS.

27) Overreliance on technology in the military which leads us to forget how to grapple mano a mano with the enemy (Russian and Chinese strategic war fighting includes immediate resort to EMP weapons).

28) Vulnerability of U.S. infrastructure to EMP weapons (even N. Korea can produce such a weapon with ease).

29) Shrinking water resources world-wide which can and will be a spark for regional military conflagrations.

30) Inadequate support for sciences and technology other than those with medical or military applications.

31) Interventionist foreign policy while our borders remain porous.

32) Energy independence.

33) Global warming that will thaw the Arctic and for the first time in history give Russian the sort of warm water ports they've always longed for. This may, over time, transform Russia into the global superpower they once dreamed of being but never achieved in reality. They're going to be very, very rich one day with the Siberian permafrost thawing and those lands becoming arable.

LongFisher

[nautiduck]

Ok I believe Ace asked for your suggestion on how you would make things better. Not for a list of all the things that may or may not be wrong. While I agree many of these items are a problem I dont believe all of them are things the govt should be involved with. Your list is supposed to be what you would do to make things better. I hope that your statement was about lessing the intrusion of religion into government, because it reads like you would increase it. So are you for or against Posse Commitatus it reads as if you would prefer the use of the military for domestic policing? Class conflicts? Are you serious? There isnt a person in this country that doesnt have the ability to raise themselves up through hard work and sacrifice to whatever supposed class they want to achieve. So where are your solutions thats what you were asked for? How easy it must be to point out all the problems of this country and complain how terrible it is living here, I will state it again thank you for sending your offspring out of country I wish more like you would do the same and if you joined them it would be even better.

[longfisher]

Nautiduck,

Silly you.

Addressing things that may be wrong does tend to make things better. At least, that's the conventional wisdom.

Perhaps, you see things differently? But I'm confused about what you might mean if you don't agree that addressing wrongs doesn't make things better.

Does not addressing things that may be wrong tend to make things better? Or are you just being that cute ole' contrarian you've been so much in the past? Consistency is a virtue I suppose.

Feel free to explain yourself.

Longfisher

[nautiduck]

Sorry youll have to read the above again I hit the submit button accidently.

[longfisher]

I will state it again thank you for sending your offspring out of country I wish more like you would do the same and if you joined them it would be even better.

I'd prefer not to cover old ground, ND. But if you insist.

You're values and philosophy are not necessarily those of America, despite the fact that you arrogate to yourself the role of final arbitor of American values and who should stay and go. So, you won't get a rise out of me on this tired, old, discredited statement. We've covered that ground before.

But for your questions, I believe there's been far too much religion in American politics, particularly in the last Administration. Why Bush became a virtual American Ayatolla to the Christian right. And, he said some really scary things about his interpretation of the inevitability of Armageddon and how it is to come about.

There as those who say that America is a Christian nation. They're plainly wrong.

So, I oppose the intrusion of religion into secular government.

I also oppose the use of the military in general policing activities except where it is authorized by law. If anyone wants to see how bad it can get to have the military involved in general policing activities just take a peek at what's going on in Mexico right now with thousands killed by the military.

Essentially, the level of lethality they might bring to the streets of America far exceeds that which the principle of due process would tolerate.

So, I support the principle of Pose Comitatus exclusions of the U.S. Federal military from general police work and crime fighting (let the FBI do that) except as prescribed by law (general insurrections) and oppose the establishment of a command structure in north American and the activation of a combat brigade in the U.S. to serve that structure.

If you're interested, I have a story from my time in the Marines which bears on this. Let me know.

LongFisher

[nautiduck]

First of all I wasnt kicking you out I was merely suggesting that if you dont like it here leave. I was also offering to help pay for your one way trip but that was just being friendly.

Secondly I believe what most speak of when they refer to America as a Christian nation is the fact that it was founded by Christians on Christian morals. I believe the Founding Fathers thoughts on Freedom of Religion meant to practice the Christian religion as they saw fit instead of "The Church" and the "The Crown" telling them how to worship. Before you decry me as a Christian prostelizer let me first say, I have my own views on theology that are quite frankly irrelevant to the conversation, mainly because I dont believe in fairy tales of any sort although I do find them moderately amusing for the way they make grown rational adults behave. Regardless of my religous values I firmly believe in the right of anyone on american soil to worship the way they want to in private. Thats what the Constitution guarantees you nothing more. Any way saying that its not a Christian Nation you cant say its not plainly, how many swearings take place over a bible, how many pieces of currency reference God, not Allah or Yahweh or Vishnu or Ra or Zeus. How many govt buildings reference some aspect of the Christian faith? America is most certainly a Christian nation or more accurately a Christian Judeo nation.

As far as posse commitatus how about the south western border? There is a very real possibility that one form of the military be it Army, Marine, or Nation Gaurd units will be deployed in strategic locations there in the near future. What about Katrina National Gaurd units were deployed all through the region in LEO (thats Law Enforcement Officer in case that was over your head) positions not just emergency relief. Are you saying they werent necessary? Or just illegal? Comparing our Military to one of the most corrupt military forces in the western hemisphere is ludicrous at best. Just exactly where have the Military been used in this Country that was not done according to law?

As far as my views and philosphy, besides my views on religion, Id wager mine more closely resemble those of more Americans than yours. You and your kind count on the fact that those that dont agree with you are more concerned with earning an honest days work and supporting their families themselves with as little govt interfernce as possible than they are taking the time to stand up and fight loud mouth liberals who spent too much time being subversed by overly liberal PHD types (Gates) who unfortunately end up teaching our impressionable young adults on campuses across the country because they have no other usable skills of their own (Those that can do, those that cant teach). Just to clarify Im not speaking of elementary or high school thats a whole nother ball game.

[Ace1st]

I've been rightfully pressed by Ace1 to list my suggestions on what Americans might want to do if they could get their priorities straight (parapharased). Below is a list I wrote in in another post some weeks before I was asked for those suggestions. I've added a few things in response to Ace1's question.

1) Erosion of habeous corpus rights

2) Erosion of Posse Commitatas principles and creation of a "North American Command" replete with it's own purposefully tasked Army infantry division

3) Increasing intrusion of religion into secular government

4) Torture of American citizens and permanent residents by the American Government

5) Arrogation of power to the executive branch by fiat and the related issue of the break down of the principle of separation of powers

6) Shrinking role of congress in determining foreign affairs

7) Increasing influence of lobbying dollars on the decision our lawmakers make (and a related issue, the incredible cost of getting elected in the first place that requires those and many other dollars)

8) Black budget items that are never voted on by Congress and therefore remain unaccountable to the people

9) Significant but unpunished wrongdoing on the part of Presidents (of all parties) and their minions which serves to sanctify and embolden an elite class and diminish the rule of law.

10) American exceptionalism and adverturism

11) Impact of foreign lobby's on our govrnment and foreign affairs (think Israel, Turkey, China, Cuba, etc.)

12) Disenfranchisement of the poorer among us

13) Healthcare (I'm a health insurance agent and believe me there's enormous pain and suffering out there)

14) Public schools increasing being used as propoganda organs of the state or religious factions.

15) Absence of any real accountability in the financial sector for the great harm their unfettered greed causes despite a plethora of regulatory bodies.

16) Class conflicts

17) Increasingly heavy hand that Wall Street plays in our lives (remember when there were pension plans and not 401K's and when health insurance didn't have Health Savings Accounts and when life insurance cash value accumulated without having investment vehicles attached)

18) Incivility in the population which prevents meaningful discourse.

19) Overall disregard for the rights and humanity of foreigners

20) Abuse of the troops by sending them on adventures that are patently illegal, immoral and injurious.

21) Culturing a warrior class among the military in a nation that heretofore prided itself on being a peaceful nation

22) Predatory trade and IMF policies that impoverish other nations and cause anti-Americanism

23) Western goepolitical control of world bodies like the U.N. (if other nations dont' feel they can have their grievances objectively addressed they'll splinter from the world community and form their own, separate bodies where we won't have a voice, think Shanghai Cooperation Organization)

24) Encirclement of Russia which remains the single most important mortal threat to America; i.e., encirclement will make them react as history shows they always have, with arms and conflict.

25) Defense budget of the U.S. exceeding that of all the rest of the world combined. If all you have is a hammer each problem increasingly resembles a nail.

26) Looming hyperinflation and devaluation of the dollar if Obama carries through with his planned expenditures without a significant recovery of the U.S. economy INCLUDING JOBS.

27) Overreliance on technology in the military which leads us to forget how to grapple mano a mano with the enemy (Russian and Chinese strategic war fighting includes immediate resort to EMP weapons).

28) Vulnerability of U.S. infrastructure to EMP weapons (even N. Korea can produce such a weapon with ease).

29) Shrinking water resources world-wide which can and will be a spark for regional military conflagrations.

30) Inadequate support for sciences and technology other than those with medical or military applications.

31) Interventionist foreign policy while our borders remain porous.

32) Energy independence.

33) Global warming that will thaw the Arctic and for the first time in history give Russian the sort of warm water ports they've always longed for. This may, over time, transform Russia into the global superpower they once dreamed of being but never achieved in reality. They're going to be very, very rich one day with the Siberian permafrost thawing and those lands becoming arable.

LongFisher

WOW......You have been thinking havent you. Interesting......

Thanks for the reply.

Valid ideals, some are confusing to me but then again snellin a hook gives me trouble too at times.

At least I now know where you stand........I will let it stew for a while.......thanks again for taking the time to answer my question.

[longfisher]

You seem like an earnest guy. Your son is lucky to have such a thoughtful Father.

Best of luck to you, Ace1.

LongFisher

[longfisher]

Wow, what a nice post, ND. No venom, name-calling, threats or illogic. I particularly liked the part about religion and I find myself in agreement with virtually all of it.

Now, about posse comitatus violations, there was one quite recently, actaully. Here's the account:

"On March 10, 2009, active duty Army military police troops from Fort Rucker were deployed to Samson, Alabama in response to a murder spree. Samson police officials confirmed the troops' presence, but it remains unclear who requested the troops and under what authority they were deployed. The governor of Alabama did not request military assistance and President Obama did not authorize their deployment. According to police officials, the soldiers were involved in traffic control and securing the crime scene. An investigation into possible violations of several federal laws including the Posse Comitatus Act, is underway.[13]"

Moreover, here's a Wikipedia account of the "errosion of posse comitatus" under the Department of Homeland Security (does anyone else feel a tinge of fear just from the name of that damned agency?).

"On October 1, 2008, the US Army announced that the 3rd Infantry Division’s 1st Brigade Combat Team (BCT) will be under the day-to-day control of U.S. Army North, the Army service component of Northern Command (NORTHCOM), as an on-call federal response force for natural or man-made emergencies and disasters, including terrorist attacks.

This marks the first time an active U.S. Army unit will be given a dedicated assignment to NORTHCOM, where it is stated they may be "called upon to help with civil unrest and crowd control or to deal with potentially horrific scenarios such as massive poisoning and chaos in response to a chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear or high-yield explosive (CBRNE) attack." These soldiers will also learn how to use non-lethal weapons designed to "subdue unruly or dangerous individuals" without killing them, and also includes equipment to stand up a hasty road block; spike strips for slowing, stopping or controlling traffic; shields and batons; and beanbag bullets.[7] however, the "non-lethal crowd control package [...] is intended for use on deployments to the war zone, not in the U.S. [...]".[7]

The US military will have around 20,000 uniformed personnel in this role in the United States by 2011, specifically trained and equipped to assist state and local government, respond to major disasters, terrorist attack, other major public emergencies.[8] This shift in strategy is a result of recommendations by Congress and outside experts.[8] This response capability is not new, but now accompanies a permanent assignment of forces to NORTHCOM.

This formalizes a role for the use of federal troops within the United States during major public emergencies and disasters, as was the case in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in 2005.[7] This has raised concern about the relationship between Posse Comitatus and the use of the military in domestic disaster support and homeland defense roles.[9] however, federal military forces have a long history of domestic roles, including the occupation of sovereign Southern states during Reconstruction and the confiscation of private firearms in the Katrina aftermath.[10] The Posse Comitatus Act prohibits the use of federal military forces to "execute the laws"; however, there is disagreement over whether this language may apply to troops used in an advisory, support, disaster response, or other homeland defense role, as opposed to conventional law enforcement.[1]"

As you can see in this account, the U.S. army did disarm citizens in Kartina. Very dangerous!

It's this errosion that has me worried. As you may recall, Cheney once recommended the use of armed U.S. troops to arrest some folks he deemed terrorists (Bush called everyone he didn't like terrorists) but Bush didn't back him up. The FBI was tasked with the job.

Imagine if there were a shootout between armed "terrorists" with U.S. troops on U.S. soil like what happened in the Branch Dividian Compound here in Texas (still some very raw feelings about that down here...Bush, the governor at the time did nothing about it). Imagine the fallout if it turned out that the terrorists were mistakenly identified as such and were acting within their legal rights.

LongFisher

[longfisher]

ND said, "Id wager mine more closely resemble those of more Americans than yours."

Perhaps that is true, ND. But it's also completely irrelevant.

Most advances are the result of precisely the opposite of thinking like most everyone else. Almost by definition, new ideas don't derive from thinking like others. Indeed, conforming our thinking and views to those of the majority is one sure way of making no progress.

But maybe you're suggesting that you've got more friends than I do because you choose to circumscribe your views to those that are popular. Such is surely the case. It's always the case with those who don't comply with conventional wisdom.

I'm untroubled by fitting in or not fitting in. It's certainly not a periority of mine. I don't poll others to see if they agree with my views before I form those views. That's the habit of politicians, something I never want to be.

LongFisher