Proliferation of "charter" boats

[Captain Jay Kavanagh]

Well, this will probably piss somebody off, but I have been holding back on this one for a while. And I don't think I have pissed off many people really good on this site yet.

Seems like more and more "charter" boats are popping up, here in NC and everywhere else.

I am an owner operator of a charter boat, it is what I do for a living.

Seem like every year there are more and more "charter" boats, most owned by folks that make their living doing something other that fishing, and are only doing it to defray the cost of thier "hobby"

I really can't fault them, our federal tax system has fostered this proliferation making in favorable to own and expense out a boat in the for hire business.

I don't blame them, I use the tax laws to my advantage as well.

Often these "charter boats" are small outboards, attempting to run offshore trips. In other cases they are big fancy yachts that run a few charters to write off the boat.

Often too, and I am not picking on anyone in particular, the Captains are less than prudent mariners that go when they should not, or are not good fisherman or boat handlers. Lets face it, anyone with a $1000 and a week of time free can get a Captain's License (yes it is how I got mine, many years ago, it was the easiest way)

I would like to see a couple of things happen.

I would like to see these new charter boats price themselves fairly, even a little higher than the man trying to make a living running a boat. Often this is not the case.

I would like to see the State of NC, put a moritorium of For Hire Permits, much like they did several years ago for the Standard Commercial Fishing License, or as it was called the "endorsement to sell". Perhaps an income requirement (such is the case for my King permit) where you would have to show actual charter and commercial fishing income as a percent of total income to get the permit. This would protect the resource, from possible overfishing (I know Hook and Line Recreational fishing is a small factor) and would protect the industry.

Everyone had to start somewhere, and I did too, the first bite me was a Sea Craft 23, the second was a 30' BC express, but I always, was priced fairly, and never attempted to do something the boat and my crew should not.

Anyway, had to get that off my chest.

Your thoughts?

and I appoligize to anyone who takes offense, alot of gross generalization here.

[THE BUZZARD]

Capt Jay,

I have been watching this trend here in Va. also......

It seems to have really effected the amount of charters that we are now getting! As in many things though I have a feeling that these part-timers aren't going to be able to stay in for the long run! Don't know about your phone but ours certainly isn't ringing off the hook!

Here's to wishing you and the family a healthy and prosperous 2008 season!

Preston

[Honey Hole]

No offense taken Capt... and I agree to some extent. But, I think you'll find scenerio in any industry. I think you'll also find that the company (or charter boat/captain) who consistantly does good work and serves his customers well, in the end, will do just fine. Is it a "pisser" to see a part-timer leave the dock with a party when you're not booked? Sure. But, if that customer isn't pleased with their experience, they'll book the seasoned guy the next time. The problem is when the party is turned off to the whole charter industry by the "newby".

The big diffence in today's charter industry versus 10-20 years ago is that everything can be learned quicker. There's incredible electronics, vessels (sleds), and resources (read that to mean internet) to help a part-timer be successful. The discussion of how the internet helps/hurts a captain's business is a LONG one.

One thing to ask: How does a new guy get started? I've been fishing the lower bay and eastern shore for 30+ years, got the card a couple years back, bought a "bigger to me" boat (26 Regulator), and am wanting to start running some trips this spring/summer concentrating on species I feel I'm good at catching (Drum/Cobia/Stripers/etc). I'm also going to market "inlet" trips puppy drum, speckled trout, clamming/crabbing on a small 18' skiff. Now, I know this isn't the type operation you're talking about... but, per your comments, how would you recommend someone get started? (this isn't meant to be a smart-assed question... but rather a serious one asking for a recommendation on "how to get started")

[DILLIGAF]

Y'all need to go to WAH-oming. Just kiddin I garuantee I'd be pissed if I were a full time Capt. that is getting charters taken away by 2% ers.

It here in Texas too. There is a group of young college kids using their dad's boats that have been running charters since last summer. Don't think they did too good either.

[Deep C]

Jay
It's rampant all over. I see a ton of it in Jersey when I'm up ther and down here its also common as fleas on a dogs stern. There has always been some but you are right, I see it much more frequently.
It irritates me. My understanding is that 360 days of sea service must be demonstrated in order to get the ticket. When I got mine and I would guess when you got yours, that time had to be doccumented, notarized and approved in very stringent ways. It doesn't soun like much but thats even a lot of time. If you fished a day a week every single week winter and bad weather included that would take seven years to mont up that much time. Today they write off time on their own boats or buddies write them off with little or no verification. You and I had to EARN it the hard way. Then to maintain 360 every five years they need a day and a half every single week with out fail. I don't get it.
Used to be easy to get a lot of days but fuel prices, tight regs, slower fishing, etc have trip numbers racing to the basement. Losing more work to the weekend offsetter doesn't help. I can only thank goodness for the tourney gig and boat babysitting jobs I'm working because I don't think chartering would cut it this year here to make anything close to a living. I've turned a few away because of schedule conflicts but not a ton. I've taken a few charters this season but again not a lot. I look at the days I do go and who is out. Every time I have gone past Sailfish Marina this season the docks are mostly full where in years gone by the docks were empty by day. Most years the edge is crowded to the point where we are weaving around each other to work good spots and that just isn't the case this year.
I don't have an answer to what the fix is.

[Talbot29]

Jay,
It's funny you posted this as I have considered doing just what you are referring to. My long term goal is to retire in about 10 years and charter full time. A lot of people might criticize me saying charter fishing is hard and it's no place for an "old gezzer". To this day I struggle with the same question. Fact is, I did some commercial fishing (not charter) for a while when I was a teenager MANY years ago so I have a fading glimpse of what I may be getting into.

What's driving me to go down this road? Some of your observations as well as others. It would help the obscene amount of money I pay to uncle sam every year. It would also help prepare me for what I ultimately want to do when I retire OR it would provide clarity that maybe it's NOT something I want to do when I retire...

Why have I not really done anything at this point? Time commitment and now fuel prices. I'm beginning to think that with the price of fuel going where it looks like it's going, this industry will change over the next 5 years and it might be good if I continued to sit back and forgo any tax breaks to see what happens. I won't stop fishing - I just won't look to charter.

I think your points are very valid and there is a problem. The key question is how do you regulate this where it's fair to everyone and doesn't penalize someone who might truely want to get into this full time but isn't ready to make the leap just yet over those that are just in it to get the tax break. I didn't even think of the undercutting of price - I would hope that the success of a boat would drive it's market price but I imagine that's just not true - marketing and price seems to drive everything in this day and age.

I'd be interested to hear what others on both sides think on this (without getting into a pissing match).

[swell rider]

Jay,
Very good topic to start talking about. I for one grew up in the fishing industry, started when I was just a kid 12 or 13 up in Long Island and outside of my enlistment in the navy fishing is all i've done. I've had the opportunity through out my career to be able to travel around the country and work and this seems to be a trend everywhere. While working up in Alaska as a commercial fisherman I watched the charter fleet in Homer AK triple will guys from the lower 48 that would just come up for the summer. When I left there in 2005 I belive they putting a moritorium on guide permits. Now that I live here in NC I bought my own boat and am working for myself both chartering and purchased some permits to also commercial fish and yes I do run a CC operation but thats all I could afford to do in the begining. The big boats are not the only one feeling the heat from these P/T operations. I price myself competitively with the others in my boat class and even though I run offshore trips I have enough exp and knowledge to know my limits. Most of my trips are King Mackeral, Dolphin and alot of Bottom fishing for Grouper because I commercial fish for them as well. When I look at what guys are in my boat class are sailing for I don't know how they can do it $450 full day what the F#@!... I had a trip last year were the customers fished on a charter the year before and never left the turning basin in MHC.. and the boat charged them $400 for 6 hrs now that bad for business all around. As for the license issue i've always had a problem with that, no practicle part of the test. You should have to pass a boat handling test to get your ticket, just like a road test with a car. In the over 23 yrs of running boats around lord knows I've dinged up my share but some of these guys don't even know were to begin but there captains. I can go on and on about this topic. For me I fish full time 12 months out of the year. My family depends on it, we live on whats provide by my charter and commercial fishing business. It's not so much who's in the business but the way they operate it, undercutting the guy next to them that really needs to fish. Most P/T guys tell me they do it just for exspenses so they can go fishing, thats were I start having a major issue. Well im sure someone else will add to this . Ken Mullen

[offshore]

I am just a regular guy that just loves to fish. I have owned boats for 25 years myself and during that time I have still been on charters with friends and full time Captains. I can only say one thing to you guys that are full time Captians and fish 360 days a year if you can. I respect the captians that do this day in and day out it is tough work, a lot of variables like weather and some of the people you deal with!!! I dont see how you do it day in and day out. My hat is off to you guys for doing this every day....Mark

[Mako Wish]

I cant agree more.... Just this year alone I have 2 new "Captains" who are going to set the world on fire in my small harbor... One even said "dont take it personal i'm going to hurt your business"... Just because you can afford a boat and a Captain 's ticket does not me you can run a Charter....

They all offer trips cheaper than what everyone else is getting... Witch affects all Charter boats..


Most of these guys think they are goin to get rich having fun and Chartering... Little do they know the work involved and the small amount of money they make.... Up north doing Canyon charters where you run a min. of 65 miles and a max of 130 miles.... Its difficult to make a plie of money.. The cost of fuel bait and Ice has skyrocketed.... These new guys hardly take the wear and tear on the boat and what fishing overnighters do to a boat in account...


Most end up going back to there jobs that actually made them the money to buy there boat and ticket....

[Capt_John]

Jay,
I hear ya man. It goes on everywhere. I personally have never owned a boat, but I've run and worked on charter boats for most of my life. The same issue came up in NC when they issued Recreational Comm. fishing licenses. I've learned that you're not gonna stop progress. Anyone with a boat can get a license and run trips. But just like any other business, the bad ones will get fewer clients and the good guys will keep the regulars. I see guys with no experience running charters,dressing the part,but couldn't catch clap in a $5 brothel. The worse ones are the ones that hang out in tackle shops, over hear you talking to a potential client and then undercut your price because he can and doesn't need the money. The guys that are "Captains" more for bar conversation than living. They would rather buy an entire wardrobe of Columbia shirts w/ Capt. whoever embroidered on it for everyday of the week than get dirty working their ass off to catch fish. That being said, I do know some guys who made a living in another business, got set for life,and wanted to run charters full time. They took their time and did it right. Guys like that you can't fault. All you can do is do your job the best way you know how and let things fall where they may. If one of those idiots asks you for help,give it to them. It's up to them whether they use it or not. No need to burn a possible bridge. In this business, you never know how you're talking to or going to meet. Get along and try to help out each other on the water and off even if you don't like the guy. It's not gonna make things better to be a dick to them just because they don't know any better. Just let it all work itself out.