THE OBAMA SCALE....decline continues !!!

[Big Fish Billy]

Personally, I see both sides of the argument relating to the treatment of prisoners/detainees. However, it seems that ya'll are so interested in protecting/supporting your own political agendas that you refuse to accept the consequences of what side you support.
The fact of the matter is, Western civilization has long admonished the torture of human beings. The history and list goes on and on. Indeed, perhaps the only ones the are truely qualified to speak on this matter are those that have been subject to such practices--- John McCain comes to mind.

In short, American policy for the past 100 years has been clear, and we have laws and rules of engagement as to the limits of enemy and prisoner treatment--- end of story.

On the other hand--- there are going to be instances in which these limits are exceeded by individuals. This doesn't necessarily mean it is right, but it certainly does not mean it should serve as a political platform to publically create national scapegoats or start witch hunts for political reasons. Every administration will have dirty laundry when their tenure is over, no doubt. I think it has been in poor taste, and not in the public interest to air prior dirty laundry publically simply for political gain/purposes.

Some of the prisoner/detainee actions referred to were wrong--- plain and simple, but on the other hand, some of them have undoubtadly been taken out of context and blown out of proportion. In this regard, I agree wholehardely with Dr. Cliff,--- somethings should be dealt with quietly and corrected quietly.---- end of story.

All you need to bring this into focus is to have your own daughter kidnapped by one of these towel heads. We'll put you in a room with him...and see what you do...maybe talk it out of him? I bet he'll be helpful.........I'll take my 44 magnum and take one joint out at a time until he tells me the location......and I'll support anyone who supports that logic........

[Captain Michael Buffington]

Jeeeze Louise! I stepped in to this thread expecting to see chatter about the annointed ones crashing ratings... That really is quite elementary. He sucks.
One boneheaded decision after another, chasing shit that doesn't need chasing, the very people he selects to surround himself with are the slime of the slime. His emasculation of our very fundemental roots was his goal. Now the country has grown wiser and are quickly regretting their choice to chase their fantasies. They got sucked in by pretty words that absolutely ad no meaning. They are now seeing the evil, yes I said evil agenda of this arrogant self important wanna be commie dictator. Now he's getting a quick lesson in reality that we the people aren't gonna stand for his shit.
I was semi- neutral going in. I'm embarrassed to say in part that I too had a flicker of hope that some how things might be better but before he was even sworn in, I had already seen the writing on the wall.
What I fail to see is anybody with any level of intellegence buying into the fountain of caca being spewed by him.

Then I see people applauding his decision to go at the CIA for "torture" practices. I'm slow to use the F word on this site but it fits with "you" being the second part of the phrase. Oh we're bad people for a little water boarding or naked human pyramids with barking dogs and hoods over their heads. Gimme a fuckin break. Oh its a violation of rights... Where are the rights activists to scream when they saw the heads off innocents? Where were they when those vids showed up on ali ben achmed goat herder you tube? Where are the rights of those that were at the world trade center? I still vividly see the plumes and smell the smoke and misery from that day nine years ago this week. They didn't play by the rules so neither should we.

Shit I say load up a bunch of tanker planes with pig blood and carpet spray the entire region to strip them of their very souls. The world aint fair. I had a cops baton twist my hand cuffs when I refused to breathylize... It got results though... No I didn't enjoy it but instead of "getting off" I got straightened right out...

"Going after" the CIA is only going to disarm part of our potential to gather info. I don't give a shit about against the law or not if its going to save even on fellow americans life. If I throttle up in a no wake zone to avoid some dim wit jet ski whos not paying attention, its illegal but it prevented perhaps a call to that dimwits mom that her idiot son was now part of my cockpit. Think about it...

I agree with that.

Mike

[SeaBiscuit]

Towelheads and spraying Muslims with pig blood? What are you guys talking about? Free speech is one thing but what is being expressed here is naked prejudice and that is NOT what this great country is about.
SeaBiscuit

[Admin]

Who Has What It Takes 2009 / 2010

Not sure about you all But I had a great weekend and a lot of fun.

Personally its hard to deal with politics threads like this.
Everyone has views and emotions about it. To me I don't read it and do not plan on it.

But hey I had a great weekend. Sadly I guess my cool photos don't compete with Obama or what ever his name is.

[longfisher]

I was a mustanger. I spent 2.5 years in the enlisted ranks during which I was promoted to Sgt. and then selected for OCS. Then I served out my time, 6 years of it and rose to the rank of Captain, company commander.

So, your working class hero (or enlisted man/common man) vs. stodgy clueless officer stuff won't work here.

You and most of the others here are merely demonstrating your adherence to outdated caricateurs and stereotypes.

Maybe that's why the Republicans are in trouble. I hear they can't think or come up with new ideas. Probably that's because they're so mired in false constructs.

Sure seems that way to me.

LongFisher

[longfisher]

Seapower,

You said, "As for me, the two "American" men you listed above as being tortured, should have been executed for treason."

That would have been fine with me too after a fair trial. That would have satisfied American standards of due process and justice.

But that's not what happened. They were first tortured and one of them tortured into insanity. That doesn't satify the standards of American due process and justice. Indeed, it is in direct contradiction of those standards and is entirely un-American and illegal both domestically and internationally.

I don't know about you guys who defend torture, but most
Americans feel that America is better than that. Moreover, they feel that Bush/Cheney was the single most aberrant and criminal administration in history and that if it's ever repeated it will be to the peril of what it really means to be American.

But here's something even some of you might be able to understand, all the torture and abuse of men, women and children backfired on us. Both the Generals in charge and once in charge of Iraq collectively agree that Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo were the number one recruiting tool of the Al Queda and of the Iraqi resistance.

It has been estimated that those geniuses in the REPUBLICAN white house who dreamed this up and put it into force (against the strong objections of the uniformed military, by the way) ultimately recruited so many foreign and domestic Iraqi fighters that more U.S. service personnel were killed as a direct result of those recruits than civilians were killed on 9/11.

FUCKING BRILLIAN YOUR REVENGE WAS, HUH? Patently stupid way to wage war. I remember how stupid the Bush administration was and how stupid those of you who support torture are every time I log onto to the several sites that display Marine casualty counts and realize that many hundreds of my Marines were killed as a direct result of your bone-headedness. And that sincerely pisses me off.

But don't let that stop you from supporting torture.

You're discredited Repulicans, after all. You're used to supporting counter-productive things like the pharmaceutical benefit for seniors and the nationalization of the debt of Freddie Mac and Fanny May and the TARP program and the bailouts of the banks, all done under a REPUBLICAN adminstration. Why not be perfectly stupid about war-fighting. It seems to go well with your other foibles.

Both wars, Iraq and Afghanistan are lost. Either on it's knees or crawling on its belly,America will leave both of those ruined nations. In the process, America will elevate hostile nations like Iran to regional powers they could never have been without our stupidity. In the process, we'll set ourselves up for the next war, and the next war and the next.

At least some of the reason why (and I think a very large portion of the reason why) this INVEVITABLE AND UTTER AMERICAN STRATEGIC DEFEAT will happen is because Bush elevated the scum of American society to positions once called super-patriots and distorted and demeaned the debate over what it means to be an American to the point that some on this board advocate spraying pig blood on Muslims and on other boards nuking them out of existence, all while claiming steadfastly to be Christians.

Misreants would be a more apt term.

When all this happens (and it most assuredly will happen just as I predict) it won't be Obama's fault (although I'm not fond of that prick either). It also won't be the fault of what you folks so glibly call "liberals". It won't the be fault of a long list of those you hate: homos, lesbos, catholics, illegal immigrants, Muslims, foreigners in general, the French, intellectuals, college professors, Ted Kennedy, the poor, etc.

IT WILL BE YOUR FAULT AND THE FAULT OF THE MOST CRIMINAL AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION, DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN, OF ALL TIMES.

Still, you'll find a way to blame someone else. It's your nature not to take responsibility for the illegal acts of members of your party but to pillory (and worse) those of other parties. It's called projection. And, Republicans are very good at projecting their well-deserved blame to others.

LongFisher

[longfisher]

DeepC:

You said, "Where are the rights activists to scream when they saw the heads off innocents? Where were they when those vids showed up on ali ben achmed goat herder you tube? Where are the rights of those that were at the world trade center?"

What you're describing is called moral equivalency. And, with your words and with Bush's deeds it's clear that you support moral equivalency and he carried it out, respectively.

Essentially, Bush and you have become what you beheld. There's no discernible difference between Bush and Saddam and those of you who support Bush's torture regime and Saddam's Fedayeen. You all either advocate, protect, defend or, in the case of Bush, directly participate in behavior that is more to be expected from tin pot dictators and their minions.

Perhaps, one day you will rule this country. Perhaps, you'll succeed in destroying the legal fabric of America. Lord knows fascism has befallen many an otherwise democratic country to it's existential peril.

But when and if you try you'll have the certain knowledge that you're not the only ones with guns and the will, knowledge and experience to use them. There are real partiots out here, not just misguided miscreants with guns who have fogotten what it means to be an American (due largely to single sources of information like FOX news, I suppose).

Moreover, we have something enlightened to defend. You have the dark legacy of Bush-Saddam to defend. We'll win out for sure.

There's you marker.

LongFisher

[longfisher]

Someone said, "All you need to bring this into focus is to have your own daughter kidnapped by one of these towel heads. We'll put you in a room with him...and see what you do...maybe talk it out of him? I bet he'll be helpful.........I'll take my 44 magnum and take one joint out at a time until he tells me the location......and I'll support anyone who supports that logic........"

Maybe I would. As I said before, I'm an emotional man with a quick temper and 6 years in the Marines learning how to hurt people.

But unlike the CIA you defend for their lawlessness and who you object to being meeted out their just deserts, I'd know full well that I would be called to account for my deeds and would very likely end up in prison. I wouldn't go crying that God or the Devil made me do it so I was acting legally. Neither should the VERY FEW CIA OFFICERS AND CONTRACTORS who participated in torture when others declined to do so because they rightfully feared prosecution or because they were just better people than that escape legal jeapardy. It's all part of having a nation that's build on laws not the fiat of a moron like Bush.

Actually, we covered this before in this thread.

[Reefraft]

So Mr Brilliant or should I say Captain Brilliant Sir......What is your opinion. If the Reps. F___k up and the Dems can't do anything (you hate them also)What is the solution. I hear a lot of shit out your keyboard but no solutions.....I thought officers where to come up with solutions and us ingrate NCO where to follow your orders.......ORDERS PLease... SIR.... YES SIR....

[longfisher]

The central reason we can't get anything done is that we keep rewarding political parties with renewed governance every few years when all they contributed to the nation was partisan divisions and obstructionism and inaction on social and policy ills that sincerely hurt the nation.

Again, that goes for both parties. Each works to destroy the other's programs each time there's a change in power so as to ensure their turn at a change in power. It's a cycle that I'm sure you realize once it's pointed out.

We're being duped...admittedly some of us willingly. It's hard work to build, it's simple to destroy. Most Americans choose the easy way out so we don't do our own thinking..So, we tolerate our politicians destroying the nation as we rail against one another over innane social issues and invented controversies.

I've got to leave the office now to pick up my kid from school. So, I'll finish with some recommendations later.

But thanks for asking one of the most intelligent questions I've seen on this board in a long time.

But before I go I want you to know that I was an NCO too and that NCOs are the backbone of the Corps. I would never consider a Marine an ingrate (but I almost made an exception for Oliver North). They're all honorable to me and worthy of respect (again, with some doubts about Ollie).

Longfisher