THE OBAMA SCALE....decline continues !!!

[Fortunate One]

Getting back to the point to of the thread.

I'm not surprised that this Clown presently occupying the White House whom I refer to as the "Snake Oil Salesman" has been crashing in the polls since taking office..

His people ran a great campaign. They appealed to people to fill in the blanks of what "Hope" and "Change" was intended to mean. They passed out the elixir and people thought it would cure all that ails them.

He never once defined "Hope and Change". It was left up to your interpretation of wonderland.

A good example of that was some stooge on the news thinking that it means she didn't have to pay for her mortgage and gas for her car will be free. Do a youtube search on Peggy Joseph. To me she was the quintessential Obama voter, not by the color of her skin but by the shear ignorance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI

People voted for this fraud because he was going to tax the rich and pay fo Peggy’s mortgage.

He was going to eliminate lobbyists.

His first decisions to appoint former Clinton administration people telegraphed the fact that he wasn’t going to do anything he said and it confirmed my belief that he didn’t have a clue what he was doing. At that point it was forget your “Hope and Change.” Although it took a little while longer for most people to realize it.

I really have contempt for people that voted for this guy. Talk about un-American. It seems like everyone is so lazy that they can't do their own research about political candidates and now look what we're stuck with for the next thee years.

The good news is now as a result of Obama, the American public has woken up and some people, not all because most are just fat and lazy, will pay attention to who they put in office.

So the downfall of the Snake Oil Salesman is of no surprise.

Now about the side bar of the CIA. I find that part of the thread interesting because I approach what’s happening to the CIA as part of Obama’s downfall. He started this crap about possibility prosecuting with the intent of clearly bringing up the Bush Administration on charges. A trial balloon of sorts back towards the end of the campaign and in discussions as he was transitioning to the position of King. Remember in January there was talk about prosecuting Bush and Cheney all over the liberal news stations?

I believe it was a result of campaign promises. Probably to that ******* Soros.

Then he got wind that maybe it wasn’t a good idea after all. So the boy clown with no back bone backed off and said in a teleprompter speech “Lets move forward”. So the liberal crowd and people on MSNBC and others got their panties in a bunch and now Holder decided to take up the charge himself. Most likely with the blessing of Obama. Clearly another ploy put out there for fat lazy Americans to believe.

Eric "a nation of cowards" Holder will in the end weaken the Military, the CIA and the FBI. And when He's tied the hands of these good folks keeping us safe and when another attack happens the blood will be on the hands of the Obama administration and my guess is they could ultimately be prosecuted for not protecting America. It’s a very slippery slope they are going down.

As far as the CIA is concerned, I miss the good old days when the CIA had the green light to change governments through the cross hairs of a rifle. I miss the good old days when the CIA could overthrow governments when it was in the best interest of the country and for national security.

And I miss the good old days when the CIA interogated people I knew not of the methods they used and nor did I care. All I cared about was that they did their job and performed it with all methods and means available.

If the CIA were to have captured someone like Terry Nichols and needed to get information as to the where abouts of Timothy McVeigh, I say have at him.

America has been wussified.

Alan Dershowitz put forth a scenario that goes something like this:

If you held someone in captivity who had placed a loved on in a box underground with 1 hour of air remaining, what would you do to save your loved one?

[Glenn W]

Personally, I see both sides of the argument relating to the treatment of prisoners/detainees. However, it seems that ya'll are so interested in protecting/supporting your own political agendas that you refuse to accept the consequences of what side you support.
The fact of the matter is, Western civilization has long admonished the torture of human beings. The history and list goes on and on. Indeed, perhaps the only ones the are truely qualified to speak on this matter are those that have been subject to such practices--- John McCain comes to mind.

In short, American policy for the past 100 years has been clear, and we have laws and rules of engagement as to the limits of enemy and prisoner treatment--- end of story.

On the other hand--- there are going to be instances in which these limits are exceeded by individuals. This doesn't necessarily mean it is right, but it certainly does not mean it should serve as a political platform to publically create national scapegoats or start witch hunts for political reasons. Every administration will have dirty laundry when their tenure is over, no doubt. I think it has been in poor taste, and not in the public interest to air prior dirty laundry publically simply for political gain/purposes.

Some of the prisoner/detainee actions referred to were wrong--- plain and simple, but on the other hand, some of them have undoubtadly been taken out of context and blown out of proportion. In this regard, I agree wholehardely with Dr. Cliff,--- somethings should be dealt with quietly and corrected quietly.---- end of story.

[nautiduck]

Would I have harmed him...you bet I would have. But I wouldn't have tortured him. I had something else in mind.

Had I done anything to him like that which I infer above (the company would never directly identify him to me, correctly sensing my intentions) I'd have violated the law. Like some of you, however, I'd have enjoyed that sweet moment of complete revenge.



LongFisher

So unless you would have killed him instantly, without his knowing who or why he was about to be killed, you would have in fact been torturing him for some small amount of time you did say you had something else in mind for him I highly doubt it was a quick merciful death say with two rounds to the back of the head without his foreknowledge. I mean because unless he knew why he was being killed then you would not have gotten your revenge. Then you say "harmed him" not killed that infers that he would live his life with whatever punishment that you deemed him worthy of. So he would have in fact be punished (tortured) for life because of his actions or his non action of not stopping the harrasment. Yes I can see that is completely different than the CIA doing what they must to protect our Country. Typical liberal bullshit its not OK for you to do that, but if it affects me directly than all bets are off. Yeah thats how all the Marines I know act. Once again you sir are full of cow flop.

[seapower]

Glenn and I agree, who would've thought??? Really what he said make's sense. To what good end does it serve to air out "dirty" laundry? Were thing's done that shouldn't have been done? Yep pretty sure they did. But folk's this is war, we didn't ask for it (I know many think we did, because we some how deserved it). You frig with the bull, you get the horn's. Any moron know's that even the "elite strategist" Benladen.
My question is this, didn't we learn anything from Vietnam? We've lost (or didn't win, how ever you what to say it) every war, since the introduction of having our military fight with one hand, if not both tied behind their back's. Look we've been at this thing longer than WWII. Difference we fought like our live's depended on it. What's the difference??? If you're going to committ yourself do so. First thing is (yes you Liberal's are gonna love this) get the notion of having "embedded" journalist's out of your mind. I got no problem with military journalist's. The media are not military, get them out of there. If your going to have interogation's, make dog- gone sure none of your people are toting camera's. Let the military do what they are supposed to do "Protect this Nation from All Foe's". Seem's like I read that somewhere Frank

[nautiduck]

Glenn and I agree, who would've thought??? Really what he said make's sense. To what good end does it serve to air out "dirty" laundry? Were thing's done that shouldn't have been done? Yep pretty sure they did. But folk's this is war, we didn't ask for it (I know many think we did, because we some how deserved it). You frig with the bull, you get the horn's. Any moron know's that even the "elite strategist" Benladen.
My question is this, didn't we learn anything from Vietnam? We've lost (or didn't win, how ever you what to say it) every war, since the introduction of having our military fight with one hand, if not both tied behind their back's. Look we've been at this thing longer than WWII. Difference we fought like our live's depended on it. What's the difference??? If you're going to committ yourself do so. First thing is (yes you Liberal's are gonna love this) get the notion of having "embedded" journalist's out of your mind. I got no problem with military journalist's. The media are not military, get them out of there. If your going to have interogation's, make dog- gone sure none of your people are toting camera's. Let the military do what they are supposed to do "Protect this Nation from All Foe's". Seem's like I read that somewhere Frank

"This is War." Amen..... After all every grade schooler knows All is fair in Love and War...

[longfisher]

Seapower said, "To what good end does it serve to air out "dirty" laundry?"

Jose Padilla was tortured into insanity. John Walker Lindh was tortured too and was made to sign a document which would forever preclude his divulging the tortures to which he was subjected. Luckily, whistleblowers filled us in.

These were American citizens. That means Bush and Cheney can, at a whim torture American citizens. And, they've done it.

I'm at a loss as to why not one of the my debate opponents above has taken up the issue of the torture of American citizens by Bush even though I've dropped the hint several times. Actually, I'm not at a loss.

Bush is a Repubican. So are they, apparently. Bush might be an SOB but he's your SOB (substitute war criminal for SOB, if you choose).

So, with your support of Bush's torture regime you implicitly support the torture of American citizens. But even that's so brazen a thought, so deviant, that you won't address it directly on this board or perhaps elsewhere in your life. Doing so would force you to condemn Bush as a war criminal and a domestic criminal who has arrogated to himself all the powers of a hereditary king. And, that would expose the moral bankruptcy and moral corruptness of the Republican party of today which continually touts itself as the sole protector of social good and norms.

When one of your own, one you elected, one you've become habituated to defend commits the most heineous crimes against what you say you stand for then the very people who should be shouting the loudest for his trial and the trial of his underlings can't seem to bridge the hypocracy gap. Too bad. So sad to see you so conflicted. But the whole nation saw through the Republican duplicity and, thankfully, acted.

Also, addressing this would clearly illuminate the logical holes in your arguement. It's like it was in Nazi Germany when the "good German" looked the other way when horrific war crimes were committed with essentially the following horror being visited on them in time...

First they came for the gypsies.

Then they came for the mentally deficient.

Then they came for the misshapen and deformed.

Then they came for the Jews and Poles and Russians.

Then they came for the Anglicans.

Then they came for us.

Maybe one day they'll come for you and me, perhaps under the guise of gun control (likely, I think) and those with guns and who defend their gun ownership will react violently. Those gun owners might be deemed seditious and traitorous and then deemed enemy combatants.

Then, my friends, you will find yourself in the soup you defended...the torture to death soup, the dissappeared soup, the summarily executed soup...all because you defended the indefensible, established a foundation for the foundationless and used tortured logic to justify torture AND COLD BLOODED CIA DIRECTED MURDER.

Torture is like other crimes of subjugation (rape, physical or mental abuse, assault, slavery, etc.) in that if unchecked it's very highly contageous. If you tolerate it anywhere you endorse it everywhere. Then it's more likely it will visit even you who defend it as it is likely that it will be restricted to others.

You get it, I'm sure. Bush assumed the powers of a tyrant and was completely unbound by the laws that follow from the Bill of Rights, such Bill of Rights as were a pre-requisite for most of the colonies to ratify the Constitution and join the Union. It's the bedrock of our society and the envy of the world. And, it was all put there to protect us from tyrants like Bush.

But some of you don't seem to be alarmed by Bush's tyranny as so many others are (see William Safires column just before he retired in which that conservative columnist called Bush out for tyranny).

Actually, so many were alarmed by this (and other failures) that Bush was thrown out on his ear as were many, many other Republicans. I'd have thought you would learn to abandon such policies. But it seems part of your DNA. So, your party justifiably deserves the title the War and Torture Party.

But it's even worse. With Bush so bad and as Bill Clinton now sheepishly admits he said during the campaign, even a refrigerator could be elected president if he wasn't a Republican. Well, that's what we got wasn't it Nothing more important than a refrigerator. That leaves an independent like me flailing for someone to vote for. Instead, I like most Americans just vote against the latest incarnation of the Devil encumbent in the White House.

Protecting American citizens from being tortured is why this all must come out. That's why our dirty laundry must be aired.

And, it must be aired in a prosecution of Bush and Cheney. Otherwise an incredibly dangerous precedent will be set...that American presidents are actually Kings with all the medieval powers to arrest, torture and kill Americans that once laid in the hands of the hated King George.

Now, to answer charges...

As for being a different sort of Marine...I was an officer. Officers are encouraged to think independently of the rigor foisted off on the enlisted men. The Marines are not some sort of monolithic band of robots. Like most instutions, civilian or military, they're made up of people with a myriad of talents and motivations.

It's not me that's out of place with the reality of the Marines. It's you who don't recognize or acknowledge that the Marines are not monolithic and it is you who has accepted and perpetuates false naratives about the Marines that is the odd man out. Your misguided view of the Marines is nothing more or less than a strained charicateur.

Lastly, Nautiduck, you said, "They are the ones that do what is necessary to keep this country what it is. Then we get liberal little bitches like yourself spewing your vilification bullshit because you think it will get you laid by the little peace loving hippies and foreign chicks. I personally know three people who work for The Agency and they are three of the most upstanding, righteous (not self righteous) people I or I would bet anyone on here know. Do I have any clue what they do for the CIA, no because I am not allowed to and because I have no need to. As was stated before things need to be done to protect our way of life and I say God Bless those who do them..."

Nautiduk, you would have done well as a real-life stand-in for Jack Nicholson as the corrupt Marine Lt. Col. in the movie A Few Good Men. You seem like an extremely fearful person. I'm substantially less so.

Oh, and I'm an independent voter, a conservative to the hilt with strong libertarian leanings and a decided disgust for those who during and after Bush's destruction of the country's economy, military and moral standing remain loyal to my ex-party, the Republicans.

I'm not a liberal, not by a long-shot. If I were I'd have supported the absolutely crazy Bush in establishing the seniors pharmaceutical drug benefit (the largest entitlement program erected since FDR) and I'd support Bush's nationalization of Freddie Mac and Fanny Mae with the concomitant addition of 5 trillion dollars to the national debt (an increase of more than 2/3rds of our debt before that).

The difficulty is yours and not mine, Nautiduk. You just can't see the world in shades of grey anymore.


LongFisher

[Glenn W]

---- and to think we are all seeing the edited version---
Got a new thesauris did you?----

[Hatterized]

well i started this thread and never figured it would turn into such a divider between so many.....

now to throw a curve ball into it.....

those famous words from the Seinfeld Soup Nazi....

"NO SOUP FOR YOU".....and that includes Presidents past and future.......

now for any that have served in our military or the CIA.....it is ALL YOU CAN EAT.......rid our world of scum and what threatens America BY ANY MEANS.........

[seapower]

I know, I know I'm a school yard bully, a hot head, etc.... as stated before. But you just confirmed what I strongly suspected, you were an Officer. Guess that's why we don't see "eye to eye". Your just cut from a different stick and I get it. Kinda don't like "intelligence" the most, got my reason's.
You may find this really hard to believe, but I don't vote or support on Party line's. I don't recall ever even mentioning Democrat or Republican in any post I've made, my subject has been the Person at hand. So you can discard me from the "blindly obedient" group.
As for me, the two "American" men you listed above as being tortured, should have been executed for treason. I know it's not nice and all but it is what it is, they were "traitor's" with the intent of killing fellow American's. What would you have done with them??? They became enemy combatant's by their own free will. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Frank

[Deep C]

Jeeeze Louise! I stepped in to this thread expecting to see chatter about the annointed ones crashing ratings... That really is quite elementary. He sucks.
One boneheaded decision after another, chasing shit that doesn't need chasing, the very people he selects to surround himself with are the slime of the slime. His emasculation of our very fundemental roots was his goal. Now the country has grown wiser and are quickly regretting their choice to chase their fantasies. They got sucked in by pretty words that absolutely ad no meaning. They are now seeing the evil, yes I said evil agenda of this arrogant self important wanna be commie dictator. Now he's getting a quick lesson in reality that we the people aren't gonna stand for his shit.
I was semi- neutral going in. I'm embarrassed to say in part that I too had a flicker of hope that some how things might be better but before he was even sworn in, I had already seen the writing on the wall.
What I fail to see is anybody with any level of intellegence buying into the fountain of caca being spewed by him.

Then I see people applauding his decision to go at the CIA for "torture" practices. I'm slow to use the F word on this site but it fits with "you" being the second part of the phrase. Oh we're bad people for a little water boarding or naked human pyramids with barking dogs and hoods over their heads. Gimme a fuckin break. Oh its a violation of rights... Where are the rights activists to scream when they saw the heads off innocents? Where were they when those vids showed up on ali ben achmed goat herder you tube? Where are the rights of those that were at the world trade center? I still vividly see the plumes and smell the smoke and misery from that day nine years ago this week. They didn't play by the rules so neither should we.

Shit I say load up a bunch of tanker planes with pig blood and carpet spray the entire region to strip them of their very souls. The world aint fair. I had a cops baton twist my hand cuffs when I refused to breathylize... It got results though... No I didn't enjoy it but instead of "getting off" I got straightened right out...

"Going after" the CIA is only going to disarm part of our potential to gather info. I don't give a shit about against the law or not if its going to save even on fellow americans life. If I throttle up in a no wake zone to avoid some dim wit jet ski whos not paying attention, its illegal but it prevented perhaps a call to that dimwits mom that her idiot son was now part of my cockpit. Think about it...