THE OBAMA SCALE....decline continues !!!

[scattered_grass]

it's also disgusting what he is doing to the cia!

completely disgusting. Why would you undermine our country in a way such as this? Good ole patriotic Obama!

[longfisher]

I served in the Marines, Swiper. I've had illegal orders. Indeed, I've had them shouted at the highest volume possible in my face with all the spit, venom and cussing you could imagine.

I refused to obey them....period. And absolutely nothing negative at all happened to me. I have what used to be calle breeding by the English. I have principles see me though the hour of trial and which bolster me when others around me falter. And, here's the most important part. If the ground on which I stand my ground is firmly fixed in American values like those of the founding Father....I win...every time.

As we are now learning, many CIA officers did exactly the same thing. They refused to participate in what was to any objective American both an illegal and anti-American activity, torture.

I regret that you don't see this. And, I question your Americanism as a consequence. Yes, I'm getting personal! It's people like you who enable tyrants.

The CIA officers knew full well that what they were doing was illegal and that's why Dir CIA went to Bush so many times for cover. That's all it was, cover. Not a change in the law. And, Cheney dutifully ordered Yoo and Addington to fabricare the justification.

They just thought they'd not get caught and punished if they had cover. They knew in their fucking DNA that they were violating the law.

Then all Hell broke loose. The country as a whole grew sick of the lies and the lawlessness and the incompetence and the abject fear of the Bushies and threw the whole Republican party out on it's ear. I take that as testiment that most Americans share my view of responsible governance and not yours.

The Repubilicans will be in the wilderness for a very long time because of Bush and Cheney's excesses.

Now, let some of the CIA swing for it. Hell, let them all swing for it, including Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld and Rice and Addington and Yoo and Scooter Libby and all the rest. Prosecute then execute.

That nest of vermin needs to be cleaned out, for sure.

Longfisher

[RWW]

I personally am completely disgusted with even the thought of prosecution for so called torture to captured enemies and known terrorists. Equally disgusting is the release of terrorist, any of them. Does common sense not come into play with this logic? If the same logic is applied then homicide detectives should be prosecuted and known murders should be set free. This is no different
I too agree with the need of law and order, yet when our enemy observes no law, the laws of any industrialized civil country rapidly become a liability for those in harms way. If the questionable actions of the CIA saved a squad, fire team, or one of our war fighting brothern (I too am a Marine Veteran, combat veteran) then so be it. That is the cost of war, especially todays wars where the enemy is often not clearly defined. I personally feel if the CIA actions saved American lives they are hero's not fugitives.
The reality is the ones looking for investigations and prosecutions (even you mentioning executions) have done the entire subject no justice. It is a complex issue that can not be generalized by bureaucrats, the evening news, or a lazy boy 2 minute analysis. It is true unlawful actions have taken place for all administrations but to include those with the actions to save lives in theater exemplifies the general ignorance of the subject.
Three points to add for thought...
1) Bin Laden has already told us we will loose this war because we are a nation of laws and we will not stomach the tactics he will use.
2) This subject has no political affiliation as you said yourself all administrations have utilized the CIA as they seen fit. You obviously are not a fan of republicans and likely not a fan of the current wars (not sure anyone is a fan of wars) however had Clinton used the CIA intelligence and taken out Bin Laden you have to wonder would we be in the position we are in today. The nest you mentioned should also include the democratic congress that voted in agreement to the administration of the time as well.
3) Bring the argument home to a personal level. I wish you or your family no harm but for arguments sake, say your child, spouse, or parent was kidnapped. Would you resort to torture of an accomplice to get your loved one back?
Semper Fi

[Reefraft]

RWW I agree with you, but let me add one more thing....If Clinton had not taken the CIA apart....9/11 may not have happened.By the way I am also a Veteran.

[bigeasy]

says its legal, its legal


Paraphrased--Richard Nixon

Guys, sometimes you just gotta do what a guy has to do. I wouldn't want people killed because I was afraid to stick my neck out. Enhanced interrogation in extraordinary situations should be legal with presidential Authorization. It should be a top secret matter. Secret stuff is need to know only.

[seapower]

You hit the nail squarely on the head. It's a need to know situation. If you can't stomach covert or questionable (in the public's eye, by the way that's who you're protecting they just don't know it) dutie's, please don't accept a job with the CIA. That being the case don't allow yourself to be found on a "special forces" team. There are activitie's that seem (or are) cruel and in-humane, doesn't mean that they are un-necessary. I would much rather have a "foe" that is scared sh_ _ less because of what "MAY" happen to them at our hand's.That's one of the most effective deterent's available.
Longfisher, many of us that have served end up having a change of heart as we get older. Maybe not even a change of heart, maybe we wish that thing's could have been different. We now have had enough time to "think it over", but it is still history. You've gotta do what's necessary at the time. When the decision come's down to "you or mine", whether it be my "crew" or family, "You" better have your affair's in order. It ain't pretty but it's just the way it is. You were (and still are) a Marine, they are some of the first to get "the call". Once the call is made, you do what is necessary. We've probably all had order's (speaking for myself) we didn't feel comfortable with. Not judging here, just the way I see it. Frank

[nautiduck]

I served in the Marines, Swiper. I've had illegal orders. Indeed, I've had them shouted at the highest volume possible in my face with all the spit, venom and cussing you could imagine.

I refused to obey them....period. And absolutely nothing negative at all happened to me. I have what used to be calle breeding by the English. I have principles see me though the hour of trial and which bolster me when others around me falter. And, here's the most important part. If the ground on which I stand my ground is firmly fixed in American values like those of the founding Father....I win...every time.

As we are now learning, many CIA officers did exactly the same thing. They refused to participate in what was to any objective American both an illegal and anti-American activity, torture.

I regret that you don't see this. And, I question your Americanism as a consequence. Yes, I'm getting personal! It's people like you who enable tyrants.

The CIA officers knew full well that what they were doing was illegal and that's why Dir CIA went to Bush so many times for cover. That's all it was, cover. Not a change in the law. And, Cheney dutifully ordered Yoo and Addington to fabricare the justification.

They just thought they'd not get caught and punished if they had cover. They knew in their fucking DNA that they were violating the law.

Then all Hell broke loose. The country as a whole grew sick of the lies and the lawlessness and the incompetence and the abject fear of the Bushies and threw the whole Republican party out on it's ear. I take that as testiment that most Americans share my view of responsible governance and not yours.

The Repubilicans will be in the wilderness for a very long time because of Bush and Cheney's excesses.

Now, let some of the CIA swing for it. Hell, let them all swing for it, including Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld and Rice and Addington and Yoo and Scooter Libby and all the rest. Prosecute then execute.

That nest of vermin needs to be cleaned out, for sure.

Longfisher

You know you are a douche bag to question some ones Americanism, their patriotism, because they disagree with your opinion. That is what makes them an American because they have an opinion and can voice it. If you did indeed serve in the Corp which I very well doubt you were most likely drummed out before graduting from basic. As far as your illegal order story your full of shit just like your little "I took the wife shooting" line of crap you were spewing in the other thread. Please do us Americans a favor and go crawl back under which ever little liberal third world country you came from and quit telling Americans how to behave or what to think. The CIA and its agents do far more for this country than your I was Marine bullshit pansy ass ever did. They are the ones that do what is necessary to keep this country what it is. Then we get liberal little bitches like yourself spewing your vilification bullshit because you think it will get you laid by the little peace loving hippies and foreign chicks. I personally know three people who work for The Agency and they are three of the most upstanding, righteous (not self righteous) people I or I would bet anyone on here know. Do I have any clue what they do for the CIA, no because I am not allowed to and because I have no need to. As was stated before things need to be done to protect our way of life and I say God Bless those who do them, and God Damn those that try and stop them. You sir are a lying piece of crap who will, like any liberal, say whatever you deem necessary to sway those without conviction to your self righteous holier than thou cause, you are obviously one of those who believe truth is a disposable commodity to be thrown in the gutter when it benefits you and yours.

Then all Hell broke loose. The country as a whole grew sick of the lies and the lawlessness and the incompetence and the abject fear of the Bushies and threw the whole Republican party out on it's ear. I take that as testiment that most Americans share my view of responsible governance and not yours.

If you truly believe this is why the democrats are in power than not only are you a liar you are a fool. Please describe the "abject fear of the Bushies" you so vocally pontificate about (see I can use big words to but I spell and use mine correctly)

[longfisher]

You guys who defend torture are several things:

1) Condoning of illegalities of the highest order, including the unwarranted torture of American citizens (think Jose Padilla, John Walker Lindh).

2) Enraptured with revenge.

3) Innocent of the power of true interrogations like those conducted by the FBI to gain, without torture but with coercion, the necessary informtion

4) Fearful.

5) Ignorant of how toture has been used by states in the past, almost uniformly, to oppress the citizens of those states.

6) Apparently, more willing to be flexible than I am regarding what America stands for. The America I believe in doesn't torture.


LongFisher

[longfisher]

An above poster raised the issue of my family. Thank you for first qualifying that you mean my family not har. I'm as sensitive to any threat, even a perceived one, towards my family as anyone.

Actually, perhaps much more. There was a recent time in American history when what amounted to Bush's self-appointed brown shirts tried to intimidate all who might disagree with an agressive, illegal and unjust war he intended to pursue against Iraq. I've had my fill of those so-call "super-partriots" and will deal heavily with anyone of those who cross my path again.

I trust you've notice they're not in vogue any longer. Neither are the Republicans who so eagerly supported them and the illegalities they supported. One would think the Republicans would learn their lessons. But that's not obvious by what is said above.

Nope, I have no use for Republicans. I also have no use for Democrats. I'm an independent, as you could see from my other posts. Blind adherence to idiologies that have become little more than scare words and slogans is mindless. And, the Repubilcans are certain mindlessly blind.

Indeed, there as an instance just after the WMD's weren't found (never existed, of course, and most informed people knew the high probability of that before the war started) when someone threatened my family. I tracked him down through his IP address to a large, well-knows electronics firm in Austin and then by virtue of their commitment to lawfullness through their internal internet security department. He was a security guard with a computer and telephone and much too much time on his hands. He was summarily fired and has never been seen on the Internet again (except perhaps under a different IP and moniker).

Would I have harmed him...you bet I would have. But I wouldn't have tortured him. I had something else in mind.

Had I done anything to him like that which I infer above (the company would never directly identify him to me, correctly sensing my intentions) I'd have violated the law. Like some of you, however, I'd have enjoyed that sweet moment of complete revenge.

Then I'd have awaited my arrest and trial and likely conviction and imprisonment...JUST LIKE THE CIA OFFICERS WHO VIOLATED THE LAW MUST AND SHOULD DO. At least, someone is paying for their defense, the taxpayer, who else. I"d have borne the full brunt of my actions.

Why does this seem right to me. The harm to the one who threatended my family seems right because I'm an emotional man trained by the Marines to hurt people. And, no matter how I try to get that out of my system I know it's there...like someone throwing the switch on a 100 watt bulb. Those of you who have been in the Marines, particularly some time ago, know what I mean.

It also seems right that I would be caught and punished to the fullest extent of the law. That's because I believe in the rule of law...it all that keeps the collective souls on this board safe from the tyranny that Bush and Cheney if they were left unfettered (and any other president, Obama or unknown) would feel free to have become.

Tyrants tyrannize. They also torture. Bush & Cheney were prototyrants and it was only the overwhelming voice of the American people, too many for the discredited brown shirts to intimidate, that threw them out of office and their supporters to the ash bin of history.

Now, let get the institutional supporters, the CIA law breakers.

So, thanks for making my case for me.

LongFisher

[seapower]

When you got the guy fired from his job. You caused pain and suffering (torture, if you will) to his family because they just lost their source of income. They didn't have anything to do with the guy harrassing you, did they??? Colateral damage??? Any man worth his salt in my opinion, would have waited patiently at the door for him to get off, then handled man to man. I think I would have had to throw him a wave or two through the window, just so he'd know what was coming.
DuckMiester beat me to it, I must admit. I gave you the credit of being a Marine, in my last post. I gotta say you don't sound like any Marine I've ever had the pleasure of being associated with. From where I stand you're just a guy with a different point of view, trying to make it stick. It Ain't working! Frank