Christmas Grinch????

[worldcat lemon]

I had a thought....... for all those people who work for the state and federal government who do not celebrate Christmas, but are paid on taxpayer dollars I think they should have to work and not get the paid time off. If they don't believe in Christmas then why should they get paid to take a holiday vacation for a holiday they don't believe in? Isn't that hypocritical? If state governments refuse to display a nativity scene at their capital because it might offend someone, then all those politicians better show up to work and not take the days off. I think the real reason is because most state governments elected officials looked all over but they couldn't even find ONE wise man in their midst.

For all the muslims, athiests, buhdists, Jehovah Witnesses, witches and warlocks and any other non-christian who does not celebrate the birth of Christ why should they get a paid vacation on this holiday? If it is "just another day" as many of these groups claim then they should just go to work and work like it was, just another day.

This country was founded on Christian principles, and remains a Christian nation. I respect the rights of others to chose their religions, but if you don't celebrate the birth of Christ then get up and go to work. My tax dollars are paying your salary!!!

It was just a thought I had.

[nautiduck]

Your absolutely right no govt employee should have Xmas or any other religous holiday off with pay. There is a seperation of church and state, if you want the holiday off, take a freaking vacation day. This country wasnt founded on christian principles, it was founded on religous freedom. The first that came here did so to escape religous persecution, so they wouldnt be told how to worship, how to believe, or what to believe. Why dont you take your religous self rightousness and shove it up your tree. Its funny you claim to be a follower of Christ during the season of his birth, yet your acting like a judgemental pompous ass, gee I dont think thats what Christ taught.

[Big Fish Billy]

Crypes, the senators are only working Tuesday afternoon until Thursday afternoon, they don't need any more time off......they'll just get themselves in more trouble, banging their secretaries or interns...like Tiger does.....

[seapower]

I see we have a point to disagree on. I agree that the first one's here came for Religious Freedom (not to mention the other tyranny the King impossed). What pray tell do you suppose was their Religious preferrence??? Perhap's Christianity??? Look at the Constitution for example, the principle's laid down are in fact from a Christian's point of view. "All men are created equal" comes to mind, Jesus Himself made that point quite clear. He came for all whether they be Jew or Greek. Yep, like it or not this was "supposed" to be a Christian Nation, We've just done some serious backsliding over the past couple of century's. Frank

[nautiduck]

Frank Im not disagreeing with you about wether this was intended to be Christian nation. At the time it was the dominant religion in Europe without a doubt, which is where the majority of the original settlers came from. They did however, stress a seperation of church and state (meaning the govt cannot and shall not tell you what to believe, not necessarily that all religous articles shall be kept from govt buildings as most believe), and a freedom to practice whatever religion you subscribe to. It may not have been intended to be that open, but with the wording the way it is I believe it was intended to be just that, non restrictive.

As far as the principles being Christian yes they are, but they are also the basic tenents of Judaism(from which Christianity derived), Islam(yes even the true form of Islam without the corruption of the fanatics), Hindu, and Buddhism. They all preach the fair and equal treatment of your fellow man, denounce murder and other crimes against each other, and for the first three are montheastic, professing belief in a single god, which if you look at all three is the same god ((God(the Holy Spirit,Christ, and the father) Yahweh, and Allah are all the same deity)). After all Christianity and Islam are derived from Judaism.

Please believe this isnt said, to argue or deride anyones beliefs, I myself was within a hairsbredth of attending the seminary after high school but after alot of thought and soul searching, I decide against.

My primary point of the first post was the attitude about who should or should not celebrate, or have the time off for Christmas. I mean seriously, its Christmas, a time of peace, friendship, forgiveness, celebration, joy(The whole Joy to the World thing, not just Joy to the Christians). I will be the first to admit my faith may not be what it once was, but I will be damned if some pompous ass thinks he should decide who can and cannot celebrate Christmas without me telling him exactly what I think about it. That is just intolerable, if Christ were here, he'd ***** slap him like he did the money lenders in the temple.

[clt_capt]

I think they should have to work and not get the paid time off. If they don't believe in Christmas then why should they get paid to take a holiday vacation for a holiday they don't believe in?

Regardless of religious affiliation, our public servants should be entitled to the same number of public holidays that many of us enjoy as a benefit of our jobs.

It also makes a good bit of sense that those holidays coincide with days that their children are out of school.

Just because the laws and constitution of this country provide for a separation of Church and State, doesn't mean that government employees are not religious. They deserve the opportunity to celebrate as their faith permits

If you are at all aware of World History, you'll realize that religious persecution was a way of life - Our Forefathers had enough insight to make the attempt to allow people to worship as they saw fit and without fear. - for that I applaud them.

My $.02

AMEN

[nautiduck]

Of course they should have Christmas off. Everyone should. I was making a point thats all.

[worldcat lemon]

Nautiduck, first of all the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob is not the God of Islam.
If you look at the symbols used on the mosques in the Islamic religion it is of the MOON. The religion began as worshiping the pagan moon god in the time of the Sabeans in Arabia. They taught that the moon god married the sun goddess who gave birth to 3 goddesses. They were called Al-lat, Al-uzza, and Manat. These three later became idols and were worshipped as the "Daughters of Allah". The Mood god was Allah. He was one of 360 idols worshipped in the Kabah in Mecca. Mohammad knew this. Ask a mullah why the crescent shaped moon is everywhere, even Ramadan begins and ends with the crescent moon.

Mohammad wanted to create his own form of religion and so he picked Allah and declared himself to be Allahs prophet. In the 1950's a major temple to the Mood-god was excavated in Palestine at Hazor. Two idols were found of the moon-god proving Allah was a pre-Islamic pagan diety( see islamic Invasion appendix C by Dr. Robert Morey) there is a crescent moon on the statue of Allah's chest.
The quran teaches that Jesus was not the son of God because the Quran declares "say NOT that Allah begot a son" (Sura 23:91). The God of the Christian faith confesses that Jesus Christ is Gods ONLY begotten son. These two religions are not the same, they do not worship the same God and savior. If they did the muslims wouldn't be wanting to kill all infidel Christians. If you read the Quran it describes how people MUST be converted to Islam, either by their own choice, or by Force. The Quran teaches that if people will not convert to Islam they are to be killed. Read it for yourself. It is not just the radicals it is engrained in their religion. This is the exact opposite of Christianity.

It was Jesus Christ that was crucified, shed his blood, and who rose again to pay the penalty for our transgressions, not Mohammad. It is Christ who will be our judge and he will judge everyone of every other religion. Mohammad's bones are still in the ground.

I know you have read my other threads and I applaud you, even when you did not agree with me, but everything I have ever written does not come from a place of hatred. I have Muslim friends whom I care deeply about but they know we do not worship the same God.

As for the founding of this country, the majority of people who were fleeing to the New World were the Puritans and the Baptists who wanted to get out from under the persecution of the Roman Catholic church and any other state run church. This country was founded on religious freedom, and even here the "Black Hatters" still persecuted the Puritans and the Baptists when the black hatters tried to develop a state run religion here. Both the Puritans and the Baptists opposed it and many died to protect your right to practice a religion of your chosing. Make no mistake this country is founded on Christian beliefs, not Muslim. I have read historical documents that state it was the strong belief of the Baptists that gave the people of our country the right to religious freedom ( George Washington) and schools like Harvard, Yale and others began as schools to train up preachers, they were seminary schools.

[LeeG]

That was a well written lesson and quite interesting. Well done!

The history of a lot of this though isn't something that I want to use as a moral basis going forward. Using our own christian country as an example since we are a shining light and a city upon a hill, our forefathers chose not to recognize a woman's right to vote and except for MA Bay even to own property. The suffrage movement didn't result in the right for women to vote until 1920 (19th ammendment). In the context of today's society, only 89 years later, that doesn't seem very "christian" of us.

Now, do we want to talk about our beloved founding fathers and the compromise of counting blacks, all blacks not just african, as 2/3rds of a person for the purpose of representation. Of course we don't have emancipation until the north wins the civil war. I know Lincoln's proclomation comes earlier but it only applied to lands that the north didn't control so I'm not giving credit until it was actually a fact. Even after the north wins the war, it wasn't really until liberal, activist judges decided in 1954 that it wasn't enough to say people should be equal but we had to act like it too (Brown v Board of Education of Topeka, Kansas). Some could argue that even counting the 1954 caase is being generous because it took another decade before the government actually enacted voting and civil rights acts to enforce what the courts decreed 10 years previously.

So, while we are a remarkable country and one that I am extremely proud to be a part of, I think I'll look to to other places for my spiritual guidence than the puritans and forefathers of the country.

[worldcat lemon]

LeeG,

I agree that there have been alot of travesties against our fellow humans and it is despicable. But realize, most of those from slavery to controlling women had nothing to do with christianity, and more to do with greed and power.

If you read about the underground railroads getting slaves out of the south(such as Corey Tenboom) you will find that it was not the Liberal but mostly Northern Baptists. This is historic fact. I do not agree with everything done in the name of Christianity, because it is estimated that the Roman Catholic Church slaughtered over 16 million Christians during the Dark Ages and Spanish Inquisition because they would not bow to a state run church or Pope. It wasn't until the last 20 years that Catholics have even called themselves Christians, with the Ecumenical movement's impact on Catholicism.

Even with all the problems in this country I would die for it and the Christian principles it was founded on, as I am sure any good patriotic citizen would.