Attention Caterpillar 3196 and C12 Owners

[Storm]

CATERPILLAR 3196 and C12 OWNERS,

If the engine(s) in your vessel has required repairs within the last six years due to a defective aftercooler, I would like to hear from you. All aftercoolers installed on 3196 and C12 engines since 2002 should consist of Cat’s latest version (216-5147) core assemblies. Cat representatives claim the only problem with the latest version aftercoolers is a condensation issue. Despite the company’s claims, I have heard from many Cat 3196 and C12 owners with failed aftercoolers – including an owner who purchased a new C12 in May 2009. The owner reported that between May 2009 and October 2009 the engine in his vessel required a replacement cylinder head, a replacement aftercooler, and a complete set of injectors. The 3196 engine that I purchased in February 2000 has required three overhauls since 2003 due to leaky aftercoolers. Two of the failed aftercoolers were Cat’s latest version. I refuse to shoulder the burden imposed by Caterpillar’s defective product and I don’t feel other loyal Caterpillar customers should have to. An information exchange about this issue is vital to getting our long-standing engine issues resolved. I have hundreds of pages of court testimony and aftercooler-related customer complaints that I am willing to share. Please share your information with me. This needs to be a team effort in order to succeed. I hope to create a new website within the next several months in order to bring attention to the problem with these engines. My previous website (catdefect.com) was dismantled due to changes by Google. The site received ten thousand visitors from more than sixty countries and was gaining momentum.

Storm

[Deep C]

Now you know I've been following this for a while. I did some digging and yes there has been a problem with 3196 engines and their after coolers... Found that you're 100% correct on that.
However you keep throwing the c-12 in that pile and that info is not correct... C12 failures especially in the acert series due to aftercooler issues is next to nil.
It would add a lot to your discussion of cat related issues if you keep it to the 3196 troubles you yourself have first hand knowledge of. I agree that you should be pissed in your set of circumstances...

[marlin magnet]

Now you know I've been following this for a while. I did some digging and yes there has been a problem with 3196 engines and their after coolers... Found that you're 100% correct on that.
However you keep throwing the c-12 in that pile and that info is not correct... C12 failures especially in the acert series due to aftercooler issues is next to nil.
It would add a lot to your discussion of cat related issues if you keep it to the 3196 troubles you yourself have first hand knowledge of. I agree that you should be pissed in your set of circumstances...

Jim J, who filed the original class action had the C-12's which do have the same issue. I got my 1200 hour oil analysis, and it did not look good at all. I.m going to run a little more, then check and change again to make certain the analysis was accurate. High iron in the C-12s right out of the gate.

[Deep C]

Jim J, who filed the original class action had the C-12's which do have the same issue. I got my 1200 hour oil analysis, and it did not look good at all. I.m going to run a little more, then check and change again to make certain the analysis was accurate. High iron in the C-12s right out of the gate.

The 12's have had early iron but seems to get better with time. The aftercooler on them hasn't been an issue for a long time and on the acerts really at all. The 3196 though has and seems to continue with that issue... I got this info from a foremer cat high placed rep so he's got no reason to be anything but straight up. Still anythings possible. High metal sounds like rings or sleeves issues.

[Storm]

C12's share the same defective aftercooler as 3196's. For the most part, C12's are the same package with different wrapping paper. Caterpillar's 31 series of engines was a failure so the company decided to redesignate the engines as C-series. This type of marketing ploy is common. Suckers that wouldn't buy a 3126 continue to buy C-9's.

I might and will point out that the class rep/plaintiff (Mr. Jaikins) for the previously decertified class-action filed the lawsuit after his replacement C12's failed.

Expert witnesses for the class traveled to Caterpillar's plant in Peoria where they inspected C12 engines that; for all appearances, seemed to have ingested seawater.
Engine Type: C12, serial number: 9HP00759. a) Evidence of core leakage towards aft end of engine, b) Casing with deposits of products of corrosion evident throughout aftercooler air box casing, c) Manifold throats serving all six cylinders found with heavy corrosion. Aftercooler and inlet manifold condition indicative of significant intrusion by seawater.
Engine Type: C12, serial number 9HP00760. a) Evidence of leakage and distortion of aftercooler endmost fins noted, b) Overall general corrosion of aftercooler casing noted, c) Heavy corrosion of two of the three inlet manifold throats noted.



Cat reps claim that the only problem with C12 aftercoolers is a condensation issue. I had an individual call me during October 2009 from Newport, Rhode Island. He purchased a brand new C12 in May 2009. He said the engine ran perfect for the first 300 hours. After reaching the 300 hour mark, the engine required new injectors, a replacement aftercooler, and a new cylinder head. The engine wasn't yet six months old. Caterpillar continues to replace failed C12 aftercoolers. Aftercoolers do not require replacement because of a condensation issue. I have numerous emails from other disgruntled C12 owners with similar complaints. I can't publish other individual's emails without their consent.

Aftercoolers on both C12's and 3196's continue to fail. Caterpillar just won't admit it. All three catastrophic engine failures that I have suffered through were at three years and 3,600 engine hours. Two of the failed aftercoolers were Cat's "latest and greatest". 3196 engines are 20,000 hour engines with ticking, time bombs strapped to them. In my case, the time bomb detonates at 3,600 hours. Instead of a fuse that burns, the fuse consists of a tube bundle that dissolves from electrolysis. Caterpillar has done nothing to address the issue of electrolysis with 3196 or C12 engines. As I said, C12's and 3196's share the same aftercooler (part number 216-5147-3). Give me a C12 and I'll kill it within 3,600 hours.

Storm

[Storm]

If I remember right, this site receives about two million visitors per year? I'll state that as a question.There are thousands of C12 engines in the stream of commerce. Any C12 owners, feel free to jump in and lend your opinion, good or bad.

I don't see how iron content in lube oil can decrease - except in the case of an engine during the break-in process or just after a rebuild. Obviously, more frequent oil changes will affect the lab analysis. Change the oil every day and you probably won't see any iron.

Aftercooler condensation or seawater ingested through a leaky 3196 or C12 aftercooler drips or is sucked directly into the intake ports. The water is often times contaminated with rust from the aftercooler containment unit. Rust and saltwater makes its way into the cylinders. Sodium and iron begin to abrade the cylinders, creating more iron particles from the cylinder walls, aluminum particles from the pistons, chromium particles from the rings. The valves and valve seats corrode and this rust is added to the mix. Lube oil is contaminated with the abrasive particles and is sprayed into all of the cylinders - including cylinders that seawater or condensation might not have otherwise contaminated. Premature engine failure results.

[Deep C]

Storm
High metal is often a result of new rings and or sleeves breaking in as they are very tight when new. As the tightness wears down and they "loosen up" the amount of friction is decreased and the amount of metal deposited in the oil is degreased.
The issue youure facing seems to be salt water intrusion into your engine. As you state you think its comming from the after cooler. Gonna rehash a couple questions. Pardon the ignorance having not read all the particulars.... I take it they were replaced. Is it possible that they were replaced with ones , though new, that may have been "new old stock" from the bad batches?
I know it seems elementary but you have checked for other sources of intrusion? I have had intrusion on various motors through the years from various sources. I had hair line crack not even visible on a 6-71. Had it from a cooling jacket on 3208. Heat exchanger on cummins 903, and three go arounds with of all things- oil cooler. One on a 653, another on a 6.2l and even on a volvo.
Now back to the aftercoolers in question. Is it a case of dissimilar metals corroding to form pin holes? I think I read that somewhere along the way. Has someone come up with a proposed cure for the problem you feel would work. Down here we have zillions of c-12's running around with very few issues and certainly not ones like your are experiencing.
Another couple quick questions... Are you dealing with Cat direct or going through a dealer? Have you tried contacting in a polite way other dealers like say ring power or pantropic for some simple consultation? Possible that their guru's may have insight you're not getting from present contacts.

[Storm]

Deep, really looking forward to writing another one of my long, convoluted monologues in response to your questions - as well as some more Cat bashing. Did I say bashing? I forgot. Not supposed to bash anyone on this site. Cat has big pants and deep pockets so the company can probably take it. I enjoy responding to Caterpillar's bullshit analysis of the aftercooler issue, because facts outweigh bullshit by a percentage of about 5:1.

Unfortunately, I have to leave for a family (Easter) get together in a few minutes. Maybe I can type off a few extra calories when I get home. Bashing Cat is always a tremendous stress relief for me. Besides, the water here in Maine is too cold to jump off the nearest bridge.

Save the endangered Maine lobstermen!

Storm

[Deep C]

Bash away if it makes you feel better. I have been reading these threads around the net for years and still no resolution. Sometimes going back and starting at the beginning and laying the issue out in simple terms along with what has been attempted and what fix that is available that would solve your problems might help. If the current contacts you have ben working with are unable to help then figuring out just who can help would go a long way in getting the fix.
I'm on your side in this, no sarcasm intended. I had go arounds with volvo for years that eventually got resolved but it took a lot of going back to the beginning and new contacts over and over til the right mix was met.

[marlin magnet]

What would you think?