another reason to fire all politicians....

[marine4003]

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker...CD,WMT,XRT,DIA

Thanks to ALL the self serving, ELECTED senators,representatives,presidents,judges ect.....
We need to start over,take the power back from these selfish,greedy, turd fondlers.

[Glenn W]

I'm not sure that I disagree with your proposition that Americans should clean house with our elected representaives, but the article you reference is nothing short of ridiculous in terms of statistics provided and implied solutions.
For example: the claim that 83% of stocks are owned by 1% of the people. The fact is, the vast majority of U.S. stocks are owned by pension funds which in turn, are owned primarily by the U.S. middle class.
With regard to most of the other implied Problems and solutions in this article, it would seem that the author is calling for more governmental intervention to protect the U.S. middle class. As examples, there are several references to the U.S. wealthy and executive compensation. It would seem that this author is calling for more governmental intervention to limit pay scales and compensation.
There are references to cheap foreign labor and the U.S.'s inability to compete in the World's market place. The obvious implications are two fold: First, the U.S. should intervein and place more resrictions on business and/or resort to a protectionist economy with large tariffs placed on imported goods. Second, due to the difference in U.S. and world economy labor rates, it would seem that this author's position and obvious solution would be to condone more illegal immigrant labor as this is the only group willing to work for wages anywhere near the level of labor costs in 3rd world countries.
I'm not sure if any of these implied solutions would be supported by the majority here on SFC.

There is no doubt the the U.S. economy and it labor force have some very serious problems which are getting worse. However, even though the reality of a solution is simple, the acceptance of this solution will not happen for many years IMO. That is, U.S. Business is finding it harder and harder to compete in the global economy primarily due to labor costs. As a result we are moving more and more jobs overseas, which adds to our lack of domestic economic growth and stifles the prosperity of the U.S. "middle class".
As a matter of simple economic arithmetic, the only way the U.S. can maintain wage levels far exceeding those in developing countries is to be more productive ( with the use of capital and technology) than others. This indeed was true during the 1950's through 1980's. During the 1990's things began to change with capital and technology becoming more available to developing countries.
The long and short of all of this is that America is going to have to take a hair cut on our required standard of living (and average real wages) at some time into the future. This realization is not even remotely palatable to elected officials or their U.S. citizens. However, we are begining to see that market forces themselves will ulimatley dictate what standard of living (and wages) Americans can (and cannot) demand relative to the productivity of its workers.

Sundays' Economics class is now dismissed and reports are due Monday morning--

[longfisher]

Wow, Glen. Your response to the article was incredilby thoughful and well-reasoned. I'll have to go back and read some of your historical posts because I must have missed your cool-headedness and logic from the ones I recall.

Although your post starts out with criticism of the statistics in the article Moron000 links, it ends up with the same conclusion, the American middle class has suffered setbacks and is in for more. Moreover, you seem to agree with the article's authors that a permanent change is store for the American middle class.

The only point on which the two of you differ is the culprit. If we can assume that Moron000 agrees with the author's point of view, a rather safe assumption, he puts the blame on politicians. You, instead, put the blame on the natural state of things; i.e., global economics.

I'm glad we find ourselves in agreement here, for the first time in a very long while. I've made many posts in the past that derides both parties for their obsequeousness (thanks for the recently spelling lesson) to Wall Street and the financial elites (wealthy).

The problem is the amount of money needed to get elected and there's only one place to get it, the wealthy or the corporations they control. The amounts needed are so huge and the reprehensible nature of the donors so complete that an implicit quid pro quo becomes explicit. The wealthy and the corporations support candidates who further their interests, and, their interests are contrary to those of the common citizen.

So, the country has become either a plutocracy or an oligarchy (Bernie Sanders favors the latter, I favor the former) masquerading around in the form of representative republic. Anyone out there feel like they've been adequately represented lately? Surely, I don't.

As the plutocracy or oligarchy deepens being a common U.S. citizen become more and more every day like being a serf serving a master rather than being a truly free person. Some acquiesce to serfdom because they're relatively secure and relatively comfortable especially compared to the rest of the world that they know about. When that comfort dissipates as it has recently with the financial crisis (or should I say crises as there's been many) then those that acquiesced in the past wake up the ongoing rape they've experienced at the hands of the elites.

That's why I don't criticize the Tea Party, despite their many reprehensible right-wing tendancies, factiousness, racism and in many cases just plain stupidity. At least they're on the path to an awakening. I wish more Americans were.

From what both of you say about the future, points of view with which I agree, I think that economic conditions will put more American on that same path to awareness of how much we've been put upon by the upper classes. And, I think the American spirit of acquiescence will dissipate.

Hold on to your hats. It's going to get a bit bumpy in the next two or three decades.

LongFisher

[clt_capt]

There are references to cheap foreign labor and the U.S.'s inability to compete in the World's market place. The obvious implications are two fold: First, the U.S. should intervein and place more resrictions on business and/or resort to a protectionist economy with large tariffs placed on imported goods. Second, due to the difference in U.S. and world economy labor rates, it would seem that this author's position and obvious solution would be to condone more illegal immigrant labor as this is the only group willing to work for wages anywhere near the level of labor costs in 3rd world countries.

What is interesting with globalization is that foreign workers are beginning to demand higher wages - China and India are 2 cases in point. There are a fair number of businesses that are now looking at the real costs of outsourcing and manufacturing in the 3rd world - and are beginning to bring those jobs back to the US - It is still more expensive here, but fluctuations in the global market have less of an impact...

My personal feelings about globalization is that if products manufactured elsewhere are held to the same quality standards, and environmental standards as if they were manufactured here. If they are not made to the same standard, then tax the hell out of them... Is that protectionist? maybe - but in the end, babies won't be killed by bad formula and cheap sheet rock won't be the reason people are run out of their houses...

[marine4003]

wow, longfisher took time away from watching kiddie **** to chime in..great,what happened there LF,wore out the DVD player again? don't believe politics had anything to do with some of the current mess?..it all started with NAFTA, from there i'd bet the list of financial contributions made to sen's and reps from fortune 500's exceeds the GNP of most 3rd world country's. Imposing term limits and getting rid of "career "pol's would bring there job description back to what its supposed to be..providing FOR THE PEOPLE. America set the standard for most manufactured goods,be it heavy equipment,electronics,tool&die ect..we made the best,but then we allowed china to flood our markets with knock off's and cheaper goods,instead of the govt imposing trade restrictions,the crap was allowed with open arms,as a result,we "settled" for second best.now were crying and paying the price.
Ok, go back to your collection of **** now..

[canyongear]

Another good reason...well you all recall BP to put up 20 Billion for spill to compensate all sorts of things.."claims". O'blabma tooted his horn on this loudly in the state of the union address..right ..made a big deal about it..

Well guess what...NO MONEY..has been paid..now it seems they failed to tell the world it's not 20 Billion..it's 5 Billion a year for the next 4 years..minor freaking detail to miss in the state of the union address..

"the excuse"...the politcians "dems" are still working out the details, meanwhile the fund administrator has claims backed up the ying yang and people are starting to loose businesses and real estate..

Does it ever end with these Fakkers? Can't they just ever do what they say and tell the truth upfront..same ol' same ol' nothing but spin and BS spewing out of both sides of their mouths.

[Glenn W]

What is interesting with globalization is that foreign workers are beginning to demand higher wages - China and India are 2 cases in point. There are a fair number of businesses that are now looking at the real costs of outsourcing and manufacturing in the 3rd world - and are beginning to bring those jobs back to the US - It is still more expensive here, but fluctuations in the global market have less of an impact...

My personal feelings about globalization is that if products manufactured elsewhere are held to the same quality standards, and environmental standards as if they were manufactured here. If they are not made to the same standard, then tax the hell out of them... Is that protectionist? maybe - but in the end, babies won't be killed by bad formula and cheap sheet rock won't be the reason people are run out of their houses...

Well Fred, as to your first paragraph you are absolutely correct, and as these countries develope and evolve more and more, there is no doubt we will see their average real wages continue to increase. Not to get into a boring discussion of economic theory, but this is precisley what the labor/capital trade off is all about---- as workers become more and more productive (through the use of more relative capital and less relative labor) real wages will increase to an equalibrium rate throughout the Global economy.
With regards to your second paragraph, I don't think anyone will dispute the need for safe and reliable products (whether from abroad or produced domestically). I believe most will also agree that alot of the products currently produced in China, India, etc., are generally of inferior quality and this, in and of itself has significantly helped the West ( U.S. and Europe) maintain it's economic position in the last several years. As with Japanese "junk" from the early 1960's, mark my words that the safety and quality of third world products will quickley improve.---- no grand standing, cheering, wishes, or otherwise--- just an observation. As far as taxing the hell out of foreign goods, protectionism has been tried time and again in this country as well as others. It's an economic fact that it does not work ( without a significant cost to the Country imposing the taxes)---- this has been seen time and again.
With the Giants of China, india, and the entire Far East now waking up ( not to mention Africa eventually coming on and Brazil already on our heels), I'm afraid that America is in for the rudest awaking ever seen--- Far greater than the demise of the U.S. auto industry. Remember when Japanese imported light trucks were kicking our ass even with a 25 % tariff?
Oh well, none of this has anything to do with booting out our current elected officials.

[marine4003]

Well Fred, as to your first paragraph you are absolutely correct, and as these countries develope and evolve more and more, there is no doubt we will see their average real wages continue to increase. Not to get into a boring discussion of economic theory, but this is precisley what the labor/capital trade off is all about---- as workers become more and more productive (through the use of more relative capital and less relative labor) real wages will increase to an equalibrium rate throughout the Global economy.
With regards to your second paragraph, I don't think anyone will dispute the need for safe and reliable products (whether from abroad or produced domestically). I believe most will also agree that alot of the products currently produced in China, India, etc., are generally of inferior quality and this, in and of itself has significantly helped the West ( U.S. and Europe) maintain it's economic position in the last several years. As with Japanese "junk" from the early 1960's, mark my words that the safety and quality of third world products will quickley improve.---- no grand standing, cheering, wishes, or otherwise--- just an observation. As far as taxing the hell out of foreign goods, protectionism has been tried time and again in this country as well as others. It's an economic fact that it does not work ( without a significant cost to the Country imposing the taxes)---- this has been seen time and again.
With the Giants of China, india, and the entire Far East now waking up ( not to mention Africa eventually coming on and Brazil already on our heels), I'm afraid that America is in for the rudest awaking ever seen--- Far greater than the demise of the U.S. auto industry. Remember when Japanese imported light trucks were kicking our ass even with a 25 % tariff?
Oh well, none of this has anything to do with booting out our current elected officials.

No, your right it doesn't, but it does bring to light the fact that our economy and once prominent standing in technology and manufacturing has been sliding downhill for some time and no-one in washington is attempting to slow it down,what they are doing is making sure there pockets, and those of there supporters are filled, electing businessmen (ie:Ross Perot) instead of politicians might help reverse this mess.

[Glenn W]

No, your right it doesn't, but it does bring to light the fact that our economy and once prominent standing in technology and manufacturing has been sliding downhill for some time and no-one in washington is attempting to slow it down,what they are doing is making sure there pockets, and those of there supporters are filled, electing businessmen (ie:Ross Perot) instead of politicians might help reverse this mess.

Don't get me wrong, as I am not in disagreement that many (if not most) of our current elected Federal officials should be ousted from office. However, I don't think it is appropriate to blame our officials for all of the woes in our society and economy, nor do I think it is reasonable to expect government to be able step in and somehow be able to fix all of these problems.
As is the case in physical science, the reality is whenever there is an political action (socially or economically), there is usually an opposite and equal reaction ( often opposite the desired effect). Policies to protect only the middle class will have long term consequenses as to investment and employment. Protectionist tariffs may seem to provide more jobs and opportunities for Amercians, but in reality are only a short term cover to hide the cancer beneath the mask.
Many people understand the problems in our economy and several understand what the ultimate solutions are, but few (including me) are willing to accept what is required to fully achieve these solutions.
Oh well. I think all will agree that this is getting waaaaaay to philisophical.

[clt_capt]

Maybe my view is a bit warped, but I do think there should be some protection in the form of tarriffs or outright refusal of entry for products that are made to less exacting standards...

I know that many would rather shop at Wal-Mart... Oh well...