Super Delegation...2/27

[flatbottom]

good luck josh...do not forget you have two very nice builders up north. Weaver and F&S. one in Maryland "Weaver boatworks" and one 1/2 mile from my home, Summit marina Delaware on the C&D canal "F&S boatworks" Both should be on the short list searching custom sleds...

[Capt Josh]

Yeah Flat i know...all i need is to add another couple of top tier builders to the equation though...I HAVE ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH IN NORTH CAROLINA!!!!

[Capt Josh]

A good friend of mine Herk weighs in...

"Okay Josh, I have listened to your take on production verses custom boats for the entire period you have been on this oddessy, both in print and in our private conversations. And although you already are aware of my position, and up until now I thought it best to keep our differeces of opinion between us, you are painting such a broad definitive picture of the hands down common sense and technical value of a custom boat, that I think it is time to present another view point.

I spent 15 years in the cradle of custom boat building, Manteo, North Carolina, Pirates Cove Marina, amidst all of the pastel hulls, and Carolina flairs and have seen both the good and the bad, and there has been plenty of both, in Carolina boats.

First let me address the issue of value for dollar. This discussion can not be had without first thinking about the particular concerns or needs of the buyer. While I recognize that your needs as a captain and charter fisherman are quite specific, those needs do not transfer to all other buyers. The reason most custom boats cost less than production boats is quite simply, you get less boat per foot. Step into any Carolina boat, and for the most part you have been looking at those custom boats, and you will find less boat to habitate. The first 6-10 feet of any Carolina boat is largely uninhabitable. The exagerated flair and the sharp entry, in the bow, serve as an excellent cutting edge for entry into a sea, but serve little purpose as far as interior space is concerned. Moving aftward, the deep vee and entry carried aftward, makes only the center aisle of the cabin space high enough for a man to walk, consequently, the layout of the staterooms and baths usually consists of high bunks nestled into the side of the hull, often sharly tapered and small. It isn't until you get a few feet forward of the salon bulkhead that a Carolina boat starts to deliver equal habitabil space. The cockpit is usually 2-4 feet longer than that on a production boat. This translates into more fishing area, however I often question just how big a pit you need, but clearly diminishes the available interior space. The end result is that from a viewpoit of Staterooms, heads and storage, you are really buying a lot of flair per foot in a Carolina boat. I have always thought that a more l realistic comprisson in Carolina verses production boats, and since you use Viking in most of your comparisions is that it takes 6-8' more Carolina boat to be equal in habitable space to a Viking. I realize that you could basically care less about that interior space, but many buyers, owners prefer more livable space per foot, rather than flair and cockpit. So in a nut shell, the cost differece in production boats verse Carolina boats can be in part explained by the reality of what is included per foot. Also , Step into the manufacturing plant, of some of the Carolina boat builders, and it is obvious that OSHA has never set foot in there. Pole barns and quansite huts, plastic tarps covering exposed spot lights serving as paint spray booths. Now I already know about Spencers yard, been there many times, and it is the exception, not the rule when in comes to Carolina boat facilities.

Now let me expresss some view points on quality control and production techniques and values. I have been in the the heart of Custom boat building long enough to see some of the mistakes, and disasters that hav eoccurred in custom boat building. Builders who in not so good times ran out of money, and left the buyer holding the bag, built produt that was not correctly designed, or produced. I have seen custom builders sneak into the marina at nights with planks and resin to rebuild or repair stringers and bulkheads that suddenly came apart. I know the boats that have suddenly sank, they always struck a container, at sea. Now, this is not to say that Custom boats are necessarily inherently less safe or reliable, I do not feel that that is the case. But, the very thing you describe as an asset of a custom boat, I find to be a risk. You have looked at boats that are only the 7th boat built, and no 2 boats were of the same design or length. The reality is, Custom boats are just that. Few in production, few boats the same in placement of bulkheads and supports. Every boat manufacturer custom and production, has built a design that did not work, was flawed. and trust me, there have been many such flaws in the custom boat world. The major difference in a custom verse production in this regard is that in a custom boat, there often is no history of performance, you do not have the ability see a model in use for some time and make changes to design or improve weak points. When you add that to the fact that most custom boats are built as light as possible, significantly lighter than their production counterpart, it becomes evident that a flaw in a custom boat is often of greaer magnitude that a production boat which has significantly more weight. support, and excess than the custom boat. There is a price to be paid for lighter, faster and sleeker.

Finally, when purcasing a new Custom boat, you usually have no idea what it will finally cost, and when it will be done. Few Custom builders will give you a quote on the final price, and it can be extremely higher than the initial estimate. a
Also time till completion is always an issue. Furthermore, you need to spend consierably more time and efort in the construction process when building a Custom boat.
I could go on about my specific viewpoint on this issue, but in the end, it is a buyers choice. I completely understand how and why you feel that the custom boat is the only way to go...for YOU. But belive me, it is not as cut and dried as you present, nor is it as risk free as you think.

Having said all that, I am sure you will find the right boat for you and Ed, it just isn't the right boat for everybody.

Herk"

[Capt Josh]

And my rebuttal...

"Herk i completely understand your points of view too...and understand why you went with a production boat for your buyer...who is not really a fisherman and needs more comfort and fru fru options than someone like me is willing to allow for...

You're right there are HORROR stories from custom boat building experiences, equal to those HORROR stories from production efforts gone terribly wrong...the argument that there are more bad skeletons in the custom market vrs production market is a moot point and until someone actually crunches numbers on things like class action lawsuits and actions taken against companies we will likely never know...

It all boils down to what i am talking about...YOU NEED TO IDENTIFY YOUR NEEDS AND WANTS AS A BUYER AND CREW and like i have said, for our situation...THERE IS NO OTHER CHOICE THAN A CUSTOM CAROLINA BUILDER...

Risks are taken in any endeavor...luckily my boss has someone like me out there pounding the pavement and dissecting the facts to ensure we make the right decision when it comes time to lay down this kind of dollars...and your guy should be happy he has someone like you working hard to make sure he gets the best deal for his needs too...

There's no denying there's a lot of shit out there...production and custom...it's our job to weed through it and find the diamonds in the rough amigo...dig on..."

[Capt Josh]

More from the peanut gallery...

"Advantage = Producton, hate to see something happen because Billybob and his brother Jedro decide to use Elmers white instead of Elmers yellow only on Fridays just for fun.

Mr. Temple,..... rebuttle.....the floor is yours."

[Capt Josh]

And my rebuttal again...

"Come on we can literally debate this till the cows come home...and likely will.

Herk makes some good points but his case falls short particularly when you consider the 54 Viking he recommended to his client is NOT a past model, it IS brand new this year and HAS NOT PROVEN ITSELF THROUGH TRACK RECORDS...so the argument he uses about non-proven hull designs falls flat on it's face given the fact he has not followed his own advice with the purchase of an as-of-yet-unproven model from Viking. Case closed in that regard.

Herk's situation as he has explained is much different than mine because his client does not demand the kinds of things we require...so obviously our final choices will vastly differ.

Are you meaning to tell me there's no risk that Viking crumbles and goes belly up in this scary economic situation the US has found itself in???? You'd be full of chit if you think that's outside the realm of possibility. Do we truly know their financial security is better than say MR.XXXX building boats right now???? NO WE DO NOT. Case closed in that regard as well your honor.

Subsequently councilor, as i've stated previously and as the court record will prove, you have to be VERY VERY careful in choosing your builder no matter what kind of product you are buying...there's a ton of production shit out there too...let's not forget the facts.

If you're concerned with buying the best boat for your money given the following needs: performance, efficiency, fishing first amenities, ride, style, etc then you will follow my lead if you're as smart as you give yourself credit for council.

The rest, as they say, will be up to the jury."