Question for the retriever guys

[N2theBlue]

I've got a question for a kinda weird thing my lab (Dixie) is doing. I got to take her on her first hunt over thanksgiving and we managed to knock a duck down for her. he swam out and got it but dropped it immediately upon hitting land and then didn't want anything else to do with it. I threw it back in the water, she swam and got it just like normal but same thing. I threw it on land, she ran up to it, then just stood there looking at me like "what am I supposed to do with this thing?" She won't hold it if i put it in her mouth.

She has never done this with bumpers, always delivers them to hand and never has a problem picking them up, and holds them as long as I tell her to. She'll sit there for 20 minutes holding a bumper until I take it from her. BUT, she doesn't have much experience with dead birds. Could it just be the new factor has her confused? What should I do to fix it? I was thinking just put the dead bird in her mouth and make her hold it for a while, and just do this over and over until she gets used to it.

As an aside, she has been force broken to bumpers and is collar trained. If the making her hold it doesn't work, should I force train her to the dead bird?

A buddy of mine (who trains retrievers and upland dogs) has never seen this before and suggested I tie a wing to a bumper to kinda get her started getting used to it.

[dolphinfrenzi]

FEATHERS is something they have to get use too. There are alot of solutions around this but others may have better ideas or solutions. Sasha was trained by Woody Thurman at Twin Lakes Kennels. Keep at it he will work over this bump (no pun intended) And I promise I am no expert but that would be my first thought.

[N2theBlue]

FEATHERS is something they have to get use too. There are alot of solutions around this but others may have better ideas or solutions. Sasha was trained by Woody Thurman at Twin Lakes Kennels. Keep at it he will work over this bump (no pun intended) And I promise I am no expert but that would be my first thought.

thats what i figured. she was trained by Wade Meacham of Sun Dog kennels, he wanted to keep her a few more months but I wasn't gonna leave her with him for a full year. She was at a point where she'd retrieve and handle a little bit. I didn't/don't need a field trial capable dog which is what she would have been once he got done.

[gottaflylee]

I have always played with the pups with duck feathers once I got them. I also work with frozen ducks when they are young, as well as starting them off on Doves on the shore. Keep plenty of water to rinse their mouth out when working in a Dove field till they get use to it.

Every dog is diffrent, some soft and a loud voice will shut them down, others are as heard headed as a rock. Just keep working on it and they should come arround.

[Wekorneg]

I save the wings off the ducks i kill. When my lab was a pup i would attach the wings to the bumpers and let him retrieve them.

[netman9]

We've had young labs struggle with large geese. Water retrieve is not a problem but would drop at land like you experienced. When field hunting they would run in circles, after multiple hunts they figured it out.

[Bert Rodgers]

It's not uncommon at all but I have a question. How much time did she spend at the trainers? Without seeing what's going on it's hard to say,but my suspiscion is that the force fetch process was not thoroughly performed and proper introduction to birds was left out.

IMO three month "summer school" training programs are woefully inadequate and far too many trainers are more than willing to take your money and allow unrealistic expectations to end up in disapointment.

I suggest you save a couple ducks for training.(God created buffleheads for puppies, he sure as hell didn't really think we should eat them).

Start with a partially thawed frozen duck.Run your dog through a few basic obediance drills. Heal, sit here. Getting her into a training mode is important.

Now have her sit and hold a bumper in front of her and command "fetch" then "hold". (I am assuming she knows and understands the "fetch" and "hold" commands.) Next take the duck and repeat the exercise with the frozen duck. If she resists reach over her muzzle with your right hand and pinch her lips against her canine teeth until she wimpers a little, then force the duck in her mouth, command "hold". If she drops repeat the drill while commanding "no-hold" Do this about 10 miniutes a day for a couple days. Once she is holding while sitting reliably start have her hold while walikng at heal. Then have her sit and hold while you walk away.Call her to you and tell her "hold" as she approaches. Bring her to heal and sit without dropping. Once she is doing that toss the duck and insist she holds all the way back to you.

Doing this in a controlled training environemnt will go a lot further than trying to train while hunting which usually results in a frustrated trainer and a confused and unconfident dog.

You should also get a copy of Evan Graham's "Smart Fetch"
www.rushcreekpress.com IMO Evan Graham's "Smartwork" series is by far the best material available for amature trainers

Good luck

Bert

[JRJBfishing]

I am no expert here by any means. To me, there are two options here, with each being needed to an extent.

First off, how old is the dog? It is not necessarily uncommon to have a dog that has not been around birds while growing up, not quite know what to do with them. The first step is to get the dog "birdy". Get her more excited to see the duck than she is to see the bumper. As mentioned before, you can attach wings to bumpers to begin getting her to associate the fun bumper with the smell of the bird. Another method of getting a dog excited about birds is to get a wing clipped pigeon, and throw that for her. When she drops that, it will attempt to get away, and it really seems to bring out the inner "hunt" in the dog. This has been a really great tool that helps me keep my dogs up and excited while going through the force process. Keep in mind, however, that to much of this will lead to other problems. If your dog is already prone to having a heavy hold, this can make it worse. I would mix in throwing frozen birds in between the live ones. One other idea is if you have someone with another retriever around, make your dog sit right next to the other dog while it retrieves several birds, this will get your dog very excited and drive it to retrieve and hold the bird with more enthusiasm. As stated before, all of this should be done in a controlled training environment to start with.

The second side to this is what Bert talked about. The dog has to know it HAS to fetch and hold when you tell it too, not matter what the object is. We normally force fetch with wooden dowel, then a bumper, and finally a bird. There is lots of great information out there (i.e books videos) concerning the force process.

It takes lots of effort and sometimes frustration to get a dog to a finished point, but to me, there are few things more worthwhile.

Good luck!

[BTH284]

I agree about the force fetch process not being complete and not a proper introduction to birds/feathers. I will be more than happy to explain if you would like to discuss further.

Force fetch is the hardest thing a dog will ever go through. I usually wait well after 6 months to start and "take their temperature" with it. If they gradually pick it up, then proceed. If they "bauk" then back off till a month or so later. Some dos will not accept this until they are 9 months or so. Every dog is different just like people.

With both my dogs, this process lasted realistically a good month or so from start to finished force when they stop "bauking". It seems like they will never get it and one day it just happens. That 10 minutes a day, 2x each day for a month straight. Do this somewhere there are no distractions and this will allow you to focus on the dog and vice versa. Wooden dowel with X shapes each end work great and will not the dowel slide out of the dogs mouth. Once perfected move on to bumpers, then birds etc like JRJB spoke of.

20 minutes to hold is not long enough IMO. A handled to retrieve and blind retriever to get a wounded bird could last well past 20 minutes.

Plus, when dog is forced fetched properly, they will fetch and hold anything you give to them for as long as YOU want them too.

They eventually learn to turn off the ear pinch or toe pinch pain and figure out it is easier to hold than to get pinched. Lots of praise and positive reinforcement is very important in this stage of training.

I even only do easy bumper and dead bird marks while force fetching a dog during the other training times.IE Singles and short marks. You know your dog better than anyone and will see their spirits actually get down during the FF phase of training. When this happens, back off and do something training wise they like and have confidence in.

Like I said, I will be more than happy to go into more detail if you would like. I love to see someone fully committed to helping their dog become an accomplished retriever.

[Ponce]

You need to complete force fetch. I used to run my labs competitively I did all my own training, and held my own against the pros.

Force fetch IS the foundation to everything else. Force fetch can be hard on the faint of heart, but it needs to be done correctly and completely, whenits doen the dogs knows that you are not requesting that they do something, but commanding.

Thier attitude will probably go down during FF, but it come right back once you are done.